Small Autocannons should be rebalanced

The 200mm is the best of all trades. It’s boring. Or rather, there is potential for interesting variation being wasted.

200mm has highest dps, highest range, and figuring that out is basically all there is to them.

200mm dmg mod/rate of fire = 0.77
150mm dmg mod/rate of fire = 0.73
125mm dmg mod/rate of fire = 0.68

There are only two significant differences: one is the powergrid, but that’s never a constraining issue, all ships can fit maximum number of turrets with plenty of powergrid to spare.

A slasher will spend 10% of it’s powergrid on 200mms, a thrasher will spend 33%. Unless you want to do something absolutely nuts and ineffective like oversized tanking your destroyer, this is meaningless.

The other one is tracking. And you might think this turns out to be a significant difference. Not so.

Range difference is 100m for the optimal ranges. With frigate targets you presumably want to hit, you would have to have a reaction time of 0.03 seconds to effectively exploit this. Even if you’re a pvp god and we account for “not burning straigt at you” and we multiply it by 10, this will still only amount to 0.3 seconds, still well in the range of latency and other shenanigans.

My main point is that if “tracking” is supposed to be the differentiating feature with these, these curves are too close.

This is chance to hit over distance to target, for a 25m sig at 3000m/s assuming a perfect orbit. (stiletto has a base sig of 31m)

tracking_base_3000

Same sig, at 1000m/s

tracking_base_1000

They are basically the same. Hitting, or not hitting, is not significantly influenced by the choice of turret.

It’s never 100% anyway and the biggest difference works out to about 10%. That’s not a strength or weakness anyone can exploit, not when fitting them and not when trying to outplay them.

Tracking and powergrid requirements are constant across meta variations as well:

tl;dr: small autocannons are basically the same.

Here is what I would like to see done about this:

First of all, keep the 200mm where it’s at. Current meta is a good baseline.

What I would like to see for the 125mm and 150mm is significant variation of optimal and falloff ranges and/or tracking.

Mostly because I discovered that varying ammo on the 200mms has basically no effect except for damage type, because the base range values are so low.

The 125mm could be significantly better at tracking, like a base value of 1000 or 1500.

The 150mm could have significantly better optimal range, to give meaningful choice for using different ammo types affecting range. Right now the effective difference is like 500m.

In short: keep 200mm as highest dps, 125mm good for tracking, 150mm good for variety.

E.g. the graph below.

It shows 3000m/s 25m sig as a before

1000 tracking for 125mm (600 optimal 4300 falloff, as before)
4000m optimal for the 150mm (320 tracking, 5000 fallofff)
200mm unchanged, but would have 10-15% more dps than the others.

modified_3000ms

The current variation for “base” vs. “Fusion S” with the 200mm is a 1200m optimal, 7200 falloff or 600m optimal 6600m falloff.

The new variation for the 150mm would be 4000m/5000m unbonused, 2000m/3000m with fusion reducing range by 50% and 6400m/7400m with carb lead, giving the 60% bonus range.

For comparison, here is another picture comparing these from above to lasers and blasters.

other_turrets_comp

I can share the code if needed.

Anything grossly wrong about my math/assumptions, please point it out.

Thanks for reading.

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Well, fitting room does matter. So, the choice between bigger and smaller T2 guns does, in theory, provide interesting choice. In practice, however, most people fit the biggest turret/launcher most of the time. Don’t get me wrong, there are times when you’ll want to free up fitting room. It’s just that increased DPS frequently outweighs the benefits you would get from using a smaller variant.

And when it comes to meta turrets/launchers, most people are just going to fit the highest meta variant most of the time.

It reminds me of the way T1 ships used to be balanced in Eve. Apparently, they were divided into to tiers, similar to the way meta turrets still work. And the idea behind them was that these tiers would present interesting choices to players based upon power and cost. However, in practice, everyone just flocked towards the highest tier ships. So, they changed the ships to have distinct roles. And that’s why we have things like two T1 attack cruisers, a T1 Ewar cruiser, and T1 Logi cruiser.

So, it makes me think that turrets/launcher variants should be teiricided to have more distinct roles (i.e. best tracking in class, best range, best fitting, lowest cap usage, best damage). And, of course, the stat improvements of the other variants should be large enough to incentivize people to actually use them. If everyone just kept flocking to the highest DPS variant most of the time, that would be a failure in my eyes.
No P2W

I find myself constantly having to downgrade from the 200s particularly on the thrasher and the tackle hulls. so there is still a lot of choice.

This already exists in the guns its just their nature of being on frigates that causes the problem. on cruisers and above the tracking differences do make a differences and add in plenty of choice based on the targets you plan to engage and the rest of your own fit.

The entire line does not need to be changed and only changing it for frigates would just introduce needless inconsistency. There may be an argument for making the smaller ones a bit better but I don’t see the need. Like I said and I fitting constraints are in issue. I don’t agree that people always go with the largest choice because while yes they do give you more DPS it tends to come at the cost of speed and or tank. Sure you can kill your target faster but you lose control and they can kill you faster.

There are some fits and some ships that do seem to have plenty of fitting space to use the 200s all the time and it is a no brainer but its not completely universal.

Interesting, can you post an example of where it is an issue to fit 200s?

I agree with you in theory, but I don’t think it works like that in practice. lemme explain.

Out of every fit I regularly fly, the only one that doesn’t use the biggest turret/missile in it’s class is my ganking thrasher (I use 150mm Artillery cannons in order to fit enough tank to stand up to gate guns). For all other fits, I always go with the biggest gun. Why?

Well, when it comes to fitting concerns, we have fitting implants, fitting mods, metamods, factions, and now abyssals -which can frequently offer the benefits of faction for a fraction of the cost. So, it’s now easier than ever to free up fitting room.

And when it comes to tracking, I’ve never found the increased tracking to offset the loss of DPS. Are there situations in which the applied DPS of smaller guns would exceed the applied dps of larger guns? I guess. But I make sure that I have good application when designing my fits (i.e. webs, tracking computers/enhancers/rigs, drugs, and or the motion prediction implant), and I fly my ships in a way that maximizes my application.

And, of course, I prioritize maxing out my fitting and gunnery/missile support skills on all my toons.

Anyway, the follow graph doesn’t prove that that there are no instances where the increased tracking is better, but it is indicative of the kinds of results I see on the fits that I design. Anyway, here we have an incursion vindi with 2x webs, 2xtracking computers (optimal range scripts), and cal navy antimatter loaded going up against a frigate. Even outside of web range, the increased damage and range of the neutron blasters results in greater damage application than the smaller guns with better tracking. And that’s just against frigates. They become even better when going up against the cruisers and battleships that spawn.

So, fitting concerns can cause some people to sometimes downgrade (especially on frigs and dessies), and the increased tracking might be worthwhile in certain situations. However, if most people are rolling with the biggest guns most of the time, then it’s not actually giving players choice, but the illusion of choice. So, I guess the question is, how often are smaller guns being used?

CCP would have the best metrics, and I’m certainly not going to go through each weapon type and size, but…

I’d prefer if they reworked how the standard T1 ammo worked to be flexible with close ranged turrets.

400mm plate Rifter uses 150mm guns. It’s quite a common fit in FW.

I would say the lower fitting autocannons are quite popular as an option on things without bonuses. I see them in the proving grounds all the time on algos and dragoon for example. Also in FW on punishers.

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Problem is less the ammo and more the reload time.