Small Class Upwell Structures to help small Corps

You realise Eve is a MMO right? as in Multiplayer? … if you don’t want to deal with other people why are you here?


Its because the “small” structure will be the FoB structure they will make for temporary staging, it will be a much more limited version of a POS but only meant for short uses so will not have any of the features a POS will for storage etc and will have a lot less HP, i doubt there will be anything long term added for that as they really aren’t needed, if you can’t afford to reploy and run an astra then you really aren’t big enough to need your own structure in the first place, for anything else you can just day trip

Whatever OP said, Malcanis law applies. :tipping_hand_woman:

First of all that law is bullshite, because simply put if you do something like this for small entities of course larger entities can use and abuse it.

I would not go as far as the OP, but what I would like to see is a sort of FOB to support deep null activities. So it can have a say two JC’s, it can hold two fitted BS in terms of M3 and has cargo capacity of say 250k m3 and it is cloaked when not in use, it can refit. When someone warps to it and arrives at less than 2,000 metres it decloaks and the cloak takes a minute to re-apply after leaving it or entering it. It has no reinforcement timer and drops everything.

This will enable people to operate in deep sov nullsec and I would think that botters in the drone regions will especially dislike this.

So Malcanis can kiss my ass, this is a great idea that would get solo players and small groups out in nullsec and I really wish CCP would just do it.

It is not a structure, it is an Orca on steroids.

I suppose you would think a mobile depot is an Orca too? I did not mention putting a pilot in it, seriously…

If OP cannot afford or defend the smallest upwell then he sure can’t afford the war that comes with it.

-1 Terrible Idea.


Funny how this thread turns into others making up ideas about what the op’s idea should really be.

I enjoyed the op’s idea. I agree that the smallest of the Citadels: the raitaru is a big investment and probably not worth the risk that comes with it. Once you get wardecced you won’t enjoy it anymore and it has awful weapons ability.

The weekly fuelcost for keeping the modules running will also consume a portion of your profits.

I would use someone else’s station.

There is still no follwing up to the small POS
Guess CCP just forgot about it.

And no, it’s not all about big crabbing Alliances in this game, there are other peoples playing - it’s a sandbox.

All through this thread it’s obvious, the elite does not like small entities - they are in to drive small groups out of the game. Their arrogance stinks!


Because it’s more fun to set up your own and join the competition?

Remember Eve is a game and therefore it pulls at our usual enjoyment instincts.

It’s not real life.

What I am replying to in the above quote is what the OP said, himself

Any of the options listed in the quoted text below are an alternative to investing in your own infrastructure.

Furthermore, if one does not have the necessary isk to purchase the infrastructure, the operating costs are probably higher than any cost savings that can be realized for reasons I explain in this post.

If players want to own structures for fun, then they are welcome to make that their goal. The creation of long term goals is an essential component to a sandbox game, after all, and I still support smaller more mobile structures for players who want to lead a nomadic lifestyle. Small groups aren’t ‘forced’ to own an Upwell structure to be competitive, though. Alternatives do exist that make sound financial sense at their scale.

Yes, very little effort on behalf of the defenders. If you cant defned it, dont anchor it.

Really? Because the WH people, who the devs considered the most nomadic lifestyle of all, utilize citadels perfectly.

And arent Raitarus only around 700 million isk right now? Thats pretty cheap.

I like where OP’s idea comes from, but i’m not too enthusiastic about some of its points.

• I like the proposed value range, but i feel like it’s a tad low. Make it 200-300mil for its intended price range and we’re already up to an acceptable price range that doesn’t make it too expensive as a permanent structure but neither too cheap to abuse it more than it would normally be otherwise.

• Be rid of the reinforce timer. A small structure doesn’t need it. If it needs it then it probably should offer more than its (proposed) price tag should allow. If you want a reinforceable structure then an astrahus offers more and better for its price.

• I kinda like the single service slot, but i’ve got my reserves.

• Docking restrictions are fine, but a small structure that hosts battleship makes limited sense. If you own a battleship, then you (supposedly) have the economic and skill base to make enough long- and mid- term ISK for a proper upwell structure. I’d kneecap that docking restriction down all the way to cruisers. (Small structure, remember that?)

• Online/offline times are… okaish in the hours range. But if you’re constantly on the move, the whole point of having a fixed structure tends to become moot.

Personally, I’d simply like a structure that allowed to keep certain mobile structures as permanent and maybe expand upon their functionality, for instance adding a basic docking system if a mobile depot is attached, and add basic storage space if a tractor unit or a deployable container is added.

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The problem is that it’s cheap for a seasoned player. Not for a new player or for a group of new players who just want to play together.

“Just join a bigger corp!” i can already hear.

What if they don’t want? You want to mandate them to exclude themselves from a whole part of gameplay just because you feel like they aren’t worthy of it or because their efficiency standards don’t match up to yours?

Let the man have his small structures. It’ll just be more targets for others.

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For a brand new player? Sure. But then again, even 100 million isk is a lot for a new player. And thats kind of the point.

Any amount of ISK can be too expensive if you choose a player that is new enough. And theres nothing wrong with cordoning off specific aspects of the game until youve proceeded far enough. We dont see people complaining that Titans are too expensive and that we should allow new players to afford to fly Titans, do we?

Joining a corp is certainly one way to solve the problem.

But I dont understand what you mean by “to exclude themselves from a whole part of gameplay”?

What part of the game are they being excluded from, and why are they entitled to be a part of that gameplay as a new player?

Is a new player entitled to fly and afford a titan in his first week?

Does a new player deserve to be a part of a 64 man Raid in WoW?

Surely you agree that this is absurd, and that there is nothing wrong with certain aspects of a video game being cordoned off for later, when the player has either the isk or the skills sufficient to join that part of the game?

If they dont want to, then thats their choice. And if you want to be a solo rorqual with no support fleet, flying through lowsec, thats your choice. But you have to own up to the consequences too.

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They can play another game.

The answer to “what are they excluded from” is a way forward to get to the parts of EVE that look interesting to them. Convince new players that they cannot “progress”, or that there are requirements they don’t find interesting, and their rational response is to leave the game immediately.

New players need interesting and achievable goals.

Rather than arbitrarily blocking them, CCP and vets should be working out ways for different kinds of new players to move forward.

I also found your post interesting for historical reasons: there was a time when referring to the concept of “in-game progression” would call down a storm of spite and hatred from that era’s self-styled “Protectors of the Purity of EVE”.

Similarly, merely mentioning of WoW would do the same.

I wonder what’s changed?


I’ll jot down my words more thoroughly; Was getting distracted by several things IRL and couldn’t phrase me proper at the time.

I’ll iterate my own words for clarity.

Acquiring, anchoring, setting up, managing and maintaining a structure are gameplay elements. A new player will never come to know what any of these are, because real structures are too expensive for the skill and economic base of a new player, mobile structures don’t have any maintenance and setting up know-how required, and by the time they will get to the point of being able of establishing their own structures they’d have probably moved on to greener pastures of gameplay.

If they join a bigger corp in order to access a structure, they’re only skimming the surface. They’re accessing the corporation’s structure, and occasionally they’ll defend it, but they will never truly come to the point of establishing their own. They will never come to truly understand the implications of a structure, until they’ve probably established a gameplay preference that might make them likely resent having to manage and maintain a structure on behalf of someone else, rather than making them enjoy managing their own.

As above. A new player will never understand the implications of a feature if they can never use it.

A rookie can take a Venture and go in a belt to mine. They take the ores, and ask themselves “what am i supposed to do with these?”. With mining and industry, they can mostly do it. They grab ores, refine them, take a blueprint, make something of it.

With a structure, they can’t. They can gawk at an Astrahus, behold the mining beam of an Athanor, use the efficiency of a Raitaru, but they will never understand that a player (or a group of) put in their time and effort to acquire it, transport it, anchor it, defend it, fit it and maintain it. It’s just there.

I’ve just checked the Jita price for Raitarus. 470mil. A rather fair price admittedly.
But what can be effectively done with a Raitaru? Even for its price it’s a fairly specialized structure that’s only useful if you’re planning on running large industry jobs.
An Athanor is 680-700mil. Considerable price jump.
An Astrahus is 800mil to 1bil. Wow.

What this thread proposes (or tries to), is to finally do something about that gap between the old (and comparatively cheaper) POS and the new (and apparently far more expensive) Upwell FLEX/STANDUP.

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Dont be disingenuous.

We both know that every single MMO requires a progression system where people need to work towards something(or pay a lot of cash) in order to attain it.

Whether players find that method of progress as tedious, is something that is shared by all MMOs. The “Grind” aspect has always been there, and will always be there.

So, what about the rest of your post? Ill take a look at the section where youve italicized your words.

New Players need intersting and achievable goals.

Well, its clearly got the interests of the OP, who wants a citadel, but just cant afford it as a new player. Or maybe hes a cheapskate. Either way, the first part of your sentence is clearly already within EVE.

And its acheivable. Every single player today who owns a citadel is proof of this. Every single player today who has more than a billion isk, is proof of this. So t hats the second part of your sentence, fullfilled, too.

Whats changed, is that we now have more and more people, like you, complaining about new players and pointing to the decline of player numbers as proof that the current model doesnt work. We have more and more people, like you, complaining about entitlement and how you think the game should be.

The parallels to WoW are only there to serve as an example of a successful, and possibly the most successful MMORPG which also seemed to have implemented this method, as a counter to peoples claims that this doesnt make sense, is not in other games, or is responsible for the decrease in players. While not necessarily a counter, it is a good way to point out that other games have this too, a lot of other games, and maybe its there for a reason.


Im at work, so im doubly distracted.

Sure. So whats the problem?

Acquiring, anchoring, setting up and managing a structure isnt a core part of gameplay. Most players, even long-standing players, who have played for years, will not even touch a structure beyond docking in it.

Theres nothing wrong with players who never get to experience any single aspect of gameplay. Whether that be building and Flying a Titan, living in WH(what with the restrictions of SP that most WH corps ask for, as well as a scanning Alt), owning and being a CEO of a successful corp, or anchoring and owning a structure. Clearly, these are all gameplay elements, but almost none of these are within most new players reach.

And if you want to use an aspect of gameplay that may not have a direct comparison, then id say that Fighter Mechanics, which is fairly different from drones and any other system in EVE, is another feature new players will most likely not experience till later.

I dont see a problem here.

Well, I think the cost of the structure itself is a good indication as to the time and effort required to acquire it.

But, again, i see no problem.

Although you say “A new player will NEVER understand the implications”, which, is not true, as I was a new player once, and i Can and have owned structures in the past.

Sure. Thats true for all the structures, though.

If youre just looking for a place to dock up, a ratiaru does nicely. A place to build? Raitarus got you covered.

If you want to mine moon ore, youll have to get an athanor, which again, is perfectly fine, because Moon ore is more precious. More reward, more cost. Makes sense.

If you want a military staging ground, with a structure that can defend itself better, then go for astrahus. Again, different use, different reason, and more cost because its able to better defend itself.

But the thing is, even if a raitaru only cost 100 million isk, comparable to the cheapest tower available, even 100 million is quite a bit for a new player. You have to remember that were talking about a single structure. Theres still going to be fuel, rigs, modules. And then theres the fact that no one would, or atleast, shouldnt, spend all of their isk and not be able to afford to replace the structure. You would need 1 billion isk to be comfortably able to anchor, and perhaps even lose the structure without any problem. Thats a ton of isk for a new player.

Which is why i said, a new enough player will struggle to afford even a 10 million isk ship, let alone a 100-150 million isk structure.

You dont solve the problem you presented by making the structure cheap.

Let me just get this misconception out of the way, because it feels like its been coming up a lot recently.

A POS is not cheaper than a raitaru. Think about it.

A raitaru, unfueled, is still useful. You can dock. You can tether. You can store items and ships with 100% safety(outside WH space atleast).

For a POS to do the same as a raitaru in this state, you need it to be fueled. Thats close to 150 million isk a month, even for a small tower.

So in 3 months, the tower will be as expensive as a raitaru that is powered down.

And yes, an unfueled POS is useless.

Your ships will be either floating in space, or stored inside one of those containers, which means anyone can shoot it(not necessarily as a wardec, either), and loot the dropped contents. There is little to no difference between an unfueled POS and just leaving your stuff out in space.

A raitaru is clearly better, especially if you know you wont be able to fuel it every day. And for a new player, having to chalk up 150 million a month to do the same as a raitaru, is a lot of isk.