Small Class Upwell Structures to help small Corps

Communications Center General Discussion
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So I know eve is extremely biased to Nullsec and massive Alliances Cough (CSMs fault)
However There is an extreme gap in the starting / small range infrastructure. Mobile depots are only for 1 person and cant really be used for more then refitting. POSes are being thrown out and most of there stuff is super garbage anyway. Medium structures are just too expensive and cumbersome and meant for medium sized corps with a decent amount of people.

What this boils down to is smaller groups of 4-5 or even worse solo players are forced into investing in infrastructure they cant utilize or defend effectively. OR being forced to join a corporation and play by there rules and hope that the corp doesn’t fail outright.

Now that FLEX Structures are implemented and almost all of the POS features are moved over its only a matter of time before CCP axes POSes outright. Yet there is still no word on Smaller structures.

A basic outline of what is needed:
100-200m est value: basically where poses where at
low/high Power states: Low would mean no reinforce, high would mean 1 reinforce
1 service slot:
Clone bay for FOBs (for null)
Factory for small/light indy
Refinery (compressor) mostly for roaming wormholes and the like.
Restricted docking of subcaps only
Quick online/offline time( Hours not days )

For everyone thinking “why”. I posted this because for people coming into eve and everyone going hey there is a lot of opportunity, well in reality there isn’t. You can join null or join an established corp because building one from scratch is just to much for new people and it really kills the game for most regular players.

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Why, exactly, is it that you can’t use an NPC station, freeported structure, or barter for access to someone else’s structure?

I think that smaller sized structures to be replacements for the POS are a good idea, but I disagree with the notion that there is absolutely no choice between owning your own structure and giving up on them. I have been able to use many structures in Eve that my corporation doesn’t own. Sometimes I have to speak to someone to gain that access, but that is the exception more than the rule where I live.

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Raitaru is what you are looking for. If you cant afford it as 4-5 member corp you probable don’t need it.

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Raitaru is 700m base add fuel modules and defenses and now its 1.2B and add a 7 day unachor timer. So no it’s not, yes 4-5 people can afford that but is it really worth it at that point? Are you going to be using its full capabilities or are you now paying for a really expensive lossmail

And Qia I understand that but that is the point I want to make as a player I shouldn’t grovel and beg to use someone else’s or have to deal with the taxes imposed. This is eve I should have the option to do it myself or do it better then the other guy and make competition

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How about a small pos? They haven’t been gotten rid of yet.

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I know , but when they do what then ?

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CCP game designers have commented from time to time that they see this gap and would like to address it in some way. It’s telling that they named Astrahus, the first Upwell structure, “Medium” sized.

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You already have the tools for that. You just don’t want to use them. I don’t totally disagree with your point about a small structure, but to say that you don’t have the tools or options right now to do something as a smaller entity is just incorrect. You not liking the choices you have is not the same as there being no choice.

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You said exactly what I was going to, and you said it better.

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Never said there was no choice, I’m just saying the ones that are present are making it hard for new players and small groups to play the game.

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Youve basically listed a strucutre that does everything that all three structures do, but at a fraction of the cost.

Only way Id say this would be okay, is if it only lets frigates dock(i.e. only ventures who can actually enter and use it), no tether, factory is worse than those in hisec, and no compression.

If you cant afford it, then yeah, thats your only option.

You do. All itll cost is 700 mill for a raitaru.

New players? Absolutely. Thats the whole point. Youre new, you should either have to rely on other people for help, or learn the ropes and advance like the rest of us.

Or pay cash for plex and sell for ISK.

No no, i have more than enough to be able to afford a raitaru, or a fortizar. And Im just one character. just because youre in a small group, doesnt mean you cant afford a measily 1 billion isk structure.

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I’m not certain you’ve done all the homework it would take to understand the costs involved, and just how much tax is collected by the station owner.

Assuming you get the structure and service module for free, you still have to pay the fuel cost to operate it. A manufacturing module in a raitaru (for the fuel cost savings) will consume 216 units of fuel per day. That is an expense of 4,000,000 isk at today’s prices to avoid paying your taxes to someone else who would otherwise be footing that fuel bill for you.

Just how much tax do you manage to skip out on? Not all that much. Each system has a system cost index (SCI) that determines the base tax you pay, and you WILL pay it. There is no avoiding it no matter what you do. Owning the structure does not reduce this cost. The player collected tax is a percentage of the SCI. In the case of an NPC station, this percentage is 10%, while I see structures in the area with much lower rates.

For people running jobs in my structures, I typically collect a couple thousand isk per job. At that rate the structure would finally break even at 2,000 jobs of whatever type people are running per day.

Looking at it another way, the NPCs with their crazy high 10% tax rate would have to tax you for 4 million isk each day before owning your structure was saving you money. That’s 40 million worth of SCI tax payed for your jobs. At a SCI of 5%, which is on the high side in my area, that’s an industry production rate of 800 million isk each day worth of finished goods. If a group can manage this, then it seems a bit far fetched that group can’t afford a Raitaru and its associated modules. The raitaru has additional benefits, true, but you can have your cake and eat it too for an almost negligible tax and maybe the cost of an office.

I haven’t had to beg anyone to use their structures. I’ve only had to ask. There’s a lot of difference between begging and trying to strike a mutually beneficial business arrangement. There is always the danger that someone else will pull the plug on your industrial jobs or clones, and that can be a major concern for a budding industrial group. That’s why you talk to people and get to know who it is you’re entrusting your affairs to, and to what extent you can trust them to.

Again, I am not trying to say small structures are not a good idea. I want them, too, for all the gameplay options the current structures do not support as well as the POS. I just feel like people don’t realize the benefits of ownership are more in not having to trust someone else than it is in any kind of cost savings for the small groups we’re talking about.

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Sounds like a low value manufacture day to me… I typically make over 2B isk worth per day, sometimes less, sometimes FAR more.

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And I bet you can afford a Raitaru. Remember, this is pointing out the improbability of being able to manufacture this large amount of goods without being able to afford any structure to manufacture in.

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Sure I can… but what for? SCI is not that much of a problem… athanor for reactions is something 10x more useful

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Not being able to buy something one doesn’t need isn’t impacting their gameplay, as suggested in the OP:

and (Emphasis Mine)

In all cases I can think of, a person is either rich enough to buy the infrastructure they need, or too poor to pay for the upkeep at today’s prices and still see a financial benefit.

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Sure, but does he actually NEED it. Or do they just want it? Either way they should be able to collect 1Bill with a couple of man relatively easy.

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I took the position that he didn’t need it, but gaps still exist between the current available structures and all play styles supported by the Player Owned Station that I would like covered.

Players who can’t manufacture enough to reach the savings in taxes to cover the fuel cost should at least be aware that they’re not doing themselves any financial favors, and the post I wrote is purely for education so that people are aware of the actual costs and benefits involved in structure ownership.

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Huge problem with current upwell structures is a 7 days unanchor timer. Which can be trolled to last forever with very small effort. OP suggestion is almost exactly my suggestion made years ago.
Current POS functionality allows nomadinc playstyle. Raitaru, however cheap it would be (which is not atm), can not allow you that playstyle, so we will lose unique big part of sandbox…

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Small corps need no help.

  1. Supporting the small guys inevitably helps the big guys more.
  2. You â– â– â– â–  up the natural balance.

Support Darwinism, instead of artificially wrecking our social genepool.

No one is forced to do anything. Do you not understand what “forced” means? Are they being held at gun point? Are they having a knife at their throat? No? Well, then they’re not being forced.

What small corps need to be able to do is understanding that they’re not entitled to anything. It means that they shouldn’t be touching ■■■■ they’re not ready for. If they want to play with the bigger guys, they first have to grow bigger. They’re not entitled to ■■■■, they have to earn the right by being able to fight for it.

Stop â– â– â– â– â– â– â–  up natural balance of things by artificially supporting the weakest.
It turns everyone into a weakling eventually.

You wreck societies with this â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– .

/thread.

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