Specialized haulers for amarr/caldari


(Lukett MyDabb) #1

I kinda take to the lore now and again but for the longest time i’ve seen a rather glaring logic flaw in the ship tree.

for the sake of time i’ll spell it out:

Caldari hates Gallente outright

Amarrians don’t like Gallentians either

Gallente are the only race to have haulers specialized in PI and ore hauling, not to mention a few more

and sure now any alpha could train gallente industrial 1but in all honesty i think it’s ridiculous on a lore level and if anyone preffers to fly a particular race class there should be those kinds of haulers at your disposal.


(Old Pervert) #2

Races don’t need parity for the sake of parity.

If you can find 3 unique mechanics for T1 haulers with specialized holds which aren’t already met, bring it forward.

But adding more ships that add nothing to the game except for racial parity is pointless.


(erg cz) #3

Amarr haulers are unique and very much specialized. Sigil is the only combat hauler, that is able to have over 600 DPS shield rep and huge passive tank. Ultimate bait ship for about 10 milions ISK.


(Dior Ambraelle) #4

I think the best solution would be to turn the Gallente special industrials into ORE industrials. That place would fit them much better in my opinion.


(erg cz) #5

Yes, and remodel them so they do not look like overdosed nereus.


(Luscius Uta) #6

I would rather want to see an Angel hauler (and even more, Angel freighter) with 50% warp speed bonus that their other ships have. It would make hauling less of a chore, at least when a hyperspatial DST isn’t an option.


(Lukett MyDabb) #7

some of that is more that some people with alts on the same acct doesn’t allow you to train skills unless you open your wallet or distrupt your skill que.


(Dior Ambraelle) #8

Angels could get a DST that isn’t slow maybe? Would that be OP?
Also, we should make a SOE blockade runner! It would be perfect for them!


(Daichi Yamato) #9

Oh my god. CCP please delete the specialised haulers.

@Lukett_MyDabb you realise the only reason they exist is because CCP didn’t know what to do with them and, for some silly reason, no one wanted them deleted/transformed.

Ok, let’s straighten this out.

Gallente:
Epithal - pi materials
Kryos - minerals
Miasmos - ore and ice ore

Minmatar
Hoarder - ammo and charges.

All of them, absolutely all of them, are broken. They ruin meaningful choice just like the old barges and exhumers did. They have un paralleled capacity in their specialised field and can fit for full tank and speed without compromising this capacity.

Want to haul ore? You’re an idiot to do it anything other than a miasmos.
Minerals? Kryos
And so on.

This is not an interesting or meaningful decision. Just like the old mack was the obvious ice miner. And that’s exactly why the new barges were given the roles they have (tank, yield and capacity) and the new haulers were given similar roles (tank and capacity).

The other haulers shouldn’t really exist. They were literally conceived like this:

'we have some left overs. What do we do? Ummm…don’t want to delete them…errr… ■■■■ it! Ore hold! Um… pi hold! Errr…running out of ideas…mineral hold? Sure ok. Ummm…Minmatar?..Ammo hold? ■■■■ it, why not I’m getting bored now.

Jobs done. Whos for a pint then?’


(Lukett MyDabb) #10

Because they’re useful?

would you want to waste time warping about fifteen times from pocos to stations if your one of those people who have a large PI operation? it’s not like these are supposed to be blockade runners or anything.


(Daichi Yamato) #11

It’d also be useful to have a freighter that can carry 400million m3 in unpacked ships. Does that mean we should make it?

What about a shuttle that warps between systems in an instant without using a gate? It’d be useful.

Useful =/= balanced.

Want to haul pi, then you should use a hauler where there is a meaningful choice between speed/tank/capacity. Same with anything else.

As i said in another thread, ore hauling between systems isn’t even meant to be a thing. The reason the ore holds were made is for supporting mining NOT for hauling. Aside from the mutated miasmos, the only reason any ship has an ore hold is to determine how long a miner or a fleet of miners can stay in a belt without off loading.


(Luscius Uta) #12

It would be OP, but I only asked for Angel T1 Industrials and Freighters, not for a DST. So far, the only pirate T2 ships were those given as AT awards.


(Lukett MyDabb) #13

in the end that only seems to prove it’s fair to provide a version of each to the other races since, since some people might not be able t to cross-train an alt or something along those lines.

because if everyone can access them from the get-go, no one is at a disadvantage.


(Daichi Yamato) #14

Even alphas can train into them with a tiny sp investment. If they have maxed out their training, they can buy smaller skill injectors for a few isk.

Or, remove specialised haulers all together.
Or, make the miasmos and Ore hauler that uses the Ore frigate skill.


(JUSTIFIED ARROGANCE) #15

Are you equally against DSTs since their hold capacity is not significantly compromised even with full tank ?

What support can you provide for this peculiar position ?


(Daichi Yamato) #16

I have reservations about the fleet hangar. But at least it’s a fleet hangar afforded by design. It’s not an after thought. And they do not create a situation like the old barges where there’s one for carrying ammo, one for carrying ore etc

(Edit: i even don’t really like the ore holds. Look back at the 2012 thread where barges were given ore holds so they didn’t have to think about their fit.

And, just like we said they would, people started asking for mods that increased their ore holds at the cost of tank…

You couldn’t make that shit up.)

Think of the ships that have an ore hold before the miasmos. Not one of them is a hauler. The orca is NOT a hauler. They are all mining support ships. Their design was not to haul ore between stations but to allow mining fleets to stay in belts for longer.


(JUSTIFIED ARROGANCE) #17

But this means the T1s are MORE specialized and so should be more justified in their existence than DSTs which really gives up nothing at all.

Mining was horribly implemented at game launch, it was fixed by adding specialized mining ships, then ore holds then a more clearly defined role set, all and all a spot on hit by CCP (which is rare, honestly).

We often ask (usually newbros proposing adding another ship to the game), ‘why do we need this new ship?’. In this case we have a new ship in essence and it was added to introduce exactly the solution to the problem you already stated yourself, that there is no specialized ore, ice, PI, etc haulers and CCP decided they should be in the game as a solution for newbros that dont have Charons to carry bulky stuff around yet.

(of course i dont know exactly CCPs thinking on the subject im just guessing using one possible thought process).


(Daichi Yamato) #18

Their specialisations are poor game design. Just like the old mack being the ‘ice miner’ was poor game design and subsequently removed. When it comes to doing pi, the epithal doesn’t have a competitor. There is no meaningful choice. There is barely any choice in how you fit it.

Having haulers specialised for tank and capacity was great. Having them specialised for what they carry is very much not.

I wouldn’t say spot on. I will admit though, ore holds on barges is very useful for balancing barges against each other AND allows barges to efficiently mine without giving them the ability to haul large quantities of normal items.

I maintain that it’d be better to allow us to modify yield/tank/capacity against eachother.

On the contrary, new bros did just fine hauling ore in iterons and badgers. And now not only can you use an Iteron V with level 1 skill but we have retties with big ore bays so you don’t even have to can mine AND you now have free compression. So you can carry several hours worth of ore in a nereus, or even moar in an iteron. In fact, CCP are trying to restrict the movement of ore. Or at least the new moon ore. And that’s why you cannot compress it.

There really was no need for the miasmos. But that said, i honestly don’t mind it that much. If they wanted to make it an ORE ship that requires some level of ORE frigate I’d be happy.

I definitely have a problem with the epithal, kryos and hoarder though. There was even less need for them. The epithal (plus the cloaky mwd trick) makes conducting pi in low sec trivial. The kryos can move huge amounts of minerals, quite safely too (my loss board aside). And the hoarder is like ‘why am i here?’


(Lukett MyDabb) #19

My thread is specifically suggesting that other races take up their own PI haulers to allow choice. even the T3 hauler thread i created was based on this idea that specialized cargo bays could be implemented. since i was suggesting a t3 anything though i understood it gave people hives and so i brought the base of why i came up with it here.


(Daichi Yamato) #20

Is not really the answer. It still makes regular haulers irrelevant when it comes to doing pi.

Delete the epithal, make everyone use normal haulers.