Target Painter or Missile Guidance Comp for emerging conduits missiles ship?

Hi, I’m doing emerging conduits solo with profit using a Praxis with rapid light missiles and drones, but I’d like to speed up things a bit so I was asking myself if it would be better use a target painter or a missile guidance computer to enhance DPS application against trigs.
I already know that I should use them both and try myself, but I love theory and want to know what other players think about. :smiley:
I also know that with TP I help also drones to apply better DPS while with MGC I only help my missiles launchers, but I’m talking about pure damage to deal, which one is more effective?

Rewriting this post because what I put down the first time looked like it was done by a cretin.

There are two things that help your damage applications:

  1. explosion radius vs target signature (until the signature is = or larger than the radius)
  2. explosion velocity vs target velocity (until the target velocity is = or less than the explosion velocity)

Target painters help a lot with 1 because they greatly increase the target signature. But if you’re getting full application from that ratio then it doesn’t do anything to help you.

Missile guidance computers help both parts, but to a lesser degree.

The way the math works the sig radius vs explosion radius is far more heavily weighted than the second part, so usually adding target painters helps a lot more than guidance computers. The problem with your situation is if you’re using rapid light missiles the sig radius vs explosion radius is already maxed unless you’re using fury missiles, so the painter and half the guidance computer is useless. You’re getting a little bit from the increased explosion velocity, but it’s minor-ish.

These modules make a much bigger difference when you start using cruiser weapons (heavy missiles, heavy assault missiles) against frigates, or battleship sized weapons against smaller ships.

TLDR: I think the missile guidance computer is better, but you’re going to be getting minimal benefit unless you’re using fury missiles.

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So no way to improve DPS application? Trigs are fast and I have to use at least 10 precision light missiles to tear down a Damavik frig. I already tested webifier, but it doesn’t do much difference.
Actually precision light missiles have a explosion radius of 20 m, while Damavik frig have a sig of 32 m

If you were using rapid lights, precision ammo, and a web then you were maxing out application.

To kill them faster you need to raise raw DPS by either:

  1. use light fury missiles
  2. use heavy assault missiles/heavy missiles

Then you start dipping into webs/painters/computers/rigs to apply more of that dps to the small targets.

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I chose rapid lights because I thought heavy assault were not as effective against smaller targets, do you think that heavy assault + TP or MGC is better than rapid lights?

It depends on what ship you’re flying and what skills you have trained. It also depends on if you want to take the time to train skills specifically for this.

For example a claymore can probably pump out way more dps with heavy assault missiles because it holds a lot more of them and takes less time to reload. It also doesn’t get hull bonuses for rapid lights.

As I said I’m using a Praxis, and I have almost all the skills at lvl 4, for example heavy assault missiles at 5 and heavy assault missiles spec at 4, same for light missiles and light missiles spec. Also I have guided missiles precision, missile projection, missile bombardment, target navigation prediction and warhead upgrades all at lvl 4, missile launcher operation at 5. Do I need other skills?

target painters have their own skills, specifically the one that can increase the sig radius increase by 25% at rank 5.

The one good thing about missiles is you get extremely consistent numbers when doing damage because they don’t have the variance of turrets or drones. I think it would be reasonable to get a ham lancher and use it, and see what kind of damage values you get from it compared to a RLML. Test with some ewar mods on the last frigate in the site and see if you can get some results.

Actually, the praxis gets a bonus to damage for heavy missiles, so you may try it with a RHML and see what you can get with various TP/webs.

Ok, I have target painting at 3, because never used before, if it seems useful, I’ll take it at lvl 4. Now the last question: HAM or RHML?

praxis doesn’t get any bonus to hams, so I would try rhml.

The target painter skill is used to to lower the capacitor cost of using target painters, the skill you need to level up to make them more effective is signal focusing (I think, it’s off the top of my head).

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Thank you, I didn’t know that skill because I don’t usually use EWAR as I play exclusively PvE

Webs and target painters are ewar for PvE.

Maybe scrams in very specific high end PvE like drifters.

I mean I don’t need to use ewar in PvE, doing combat missions I never felt the need before, but with trigs is different.
Anyway, thanks to your tips, using webifier and fury light missiles I was able to increase DPS application and finish emerging conduits a bit more faster. Now I think I’ll finish training skills for heavy missiles and try use RHML with webifier, target painter and MGC to see which one is the best combination, even if I think MGC is less interesting because it will not help drones. Maybe with one between web and TP I could also use heavy drones against the Vedmak cruiser in the last wave to destroy it quickly.
Also I’d like to ask you one more thing: I’m actually using Nova missiles and minmatar drones (warrior, valkyrie) because I think explosive damage is the best against trigs, do you agree or there’s something better?

Because missiles all have the same stats the correct answer for missiles is nova.

For drones I’m not actually sure, because thermal drones do more raw damage, but explosive drones hit the lowest resist and have better application. In my personal tests I didn’t get significant dps difference between the two, but I didn’t test it very thoroughly. What decided it for me was that I was duoing minor conduits with drone boats and the galente drones were too slow to keep up with the battleship, so I switched over to minmatar drones for everything. I don’t know if it’s paper dps optimal though.

Ok, so you use the same solution (minmatar).
In the meantime I was looking at the RHML but I was perplessed.
Actually, with RLML and fury missiles, I have a explosion radius of 55 m, while Damavik frig have a sig of 32 m (on this I app a webifier). Instead with RHML and fury I’d have a explosion radius of 192 m. Using a republic fleet target painter I’d have a 33% signature radius modifier, plus another 20% training the proper skill.
This means that I should have a target of about 50 m, right? So isn’t it better 32 on 55 instead of 50 on 192? I mean wouldn’t I do more damage actually than switching to RHML + TP? I ask because I’m almost sure that my math is wrong :smiley:

I wouldn’t use fury missiles if you go up to rhml. Try heavy precision for best results, you’re using the fact that the missile itself does more damage.

When you were using rlml the jump up to fury made sense because you had maxed out your application. You won’t have that with heavy missiles, so you’re back to trying to max application again.

Already using rapid light? then ballistic control system are better than those, since your damage application is good already.

Mission will do upto 100% of their listed damage.

Only things that effect DPS;

Launcher ROF
Skills that effect damage and ROF
Missiles used vs damage resist.
And Ballistic Computers.

These will increase max damage by increased ROF or missile damage.

To ensure damage gets as close to 100%;
Guidance computers with precision scripts
Skills, Implants and RIGs that reduce explosion radius and increase explosion velocity
Target Painters, grapplers, etc.

These help to improve missile damage to get to its 100%.

Remember missiles never miss, but if a targets signature is smaller than explosion radius or current speed is faster than explosion velocity, there’s a chance it’ll receive less damage for a missile hit.

TP with Grapplers are great in one on one fights, as you can increase the target signature to the point even a torpedo can one shot kill a frigate, and the grappler would ensure it was travelling fast enough to escape the explosion.

Guidance Computers don’t change the targets signature or speed, instead it changes the missiles characteristics, this allows multiple launchers to engage multiple targets at the same time. If you have more than 2 heavy launchers, then using all on a frigate or destroyer is a waste of missiles as normal the first two hits will kill these ships, with a missile boat this is even more true with its bonuses.
So ideally you use two launchers per target, and only focus fire on hard cruisers or on anything larger.

When you look at it its personal taste as to which way to go.

you should learn to use pyfa, it tells you your effective DPS vs specific target.

THE FOLLOWING GRAPHS ARE WITH ALL 5 SKILLS WHICH YOU DONT. Especially you don’t have the sig amplifier skilll, nor the application skills for missiles.

here are the dips of a praxis with ONE RHML , no BCU, with the three missile types, and RLML with fury, against a triglavian frigate (245 m/s, 34m sig)


from here we can see that going rlml is worse than rhml with precisions. The max dips of the rhml is 49.1 DPS

going with application mods :
GC(precision scripted) vs painter :


2mods :

adding a rigor II :

with 2 rigor II :

with 1 rigor II and a grappler :

with 2 rigor II and a grappler :

so to deal maximum DPS(49.1DPS) you need two painters II, two rigor II, a grappler.

The RLML deals already max DPS with no application mod.
so now with 6 RLML and 3 BCU it goes 448 DPS which are applie dperfectly vs all targets. When the grappler is not applied, you will only deal 331 DPs though - so when target are above 10km, shoot the destroyer and the cruiser first. Then ask questions :smiley:

but now, since we know bot grappler and painter have an effect, what about using the other ammos again ?

actually with grappler active and close range, the CN deals more DPS
so the answer is : use RHML with CN, unless you want to save ammos price then use precision, and 2 rigor T2, two painters.

also I tested with polybolos and it does not increase the DPS over a standar BCU. (because the limiting factor is the sig)

Also the navy does not apply fully. Use a T1 additional rigor to get even closer to the max application(492 DPs over 504 max )
But then I think your tank starts to suffer a bit …

the fury outdps the precision with … 4 painters, 3 rigors, 1 grappler and one scripted computer (and still only reaches the navy )

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I’m surprised how close I was, giving I was shooting completely from the hip. I wouldn’t have guessed that the faction ammo passes the precision ammo on frigates.