Sorry was using that term as a catch-all to help me understand this situation. Im still not sure I do, but thank you for your answer.
How long until self balancing happens at ship level I wonder. Every month every ship gets slight tweaks automatically changing the meta every time lol.
People will not be willing to change their fittings on a daily, or even monthly basis.
That would drive everyone mad, myself included … and I’m a very patient person.
lol the chaos …
Edit: Ramona points at a completely new shipline that works like this.
That might not be so bad, but for all the existing ships … ■■■■ no.
Tech 4: when ships are constructs that reform due to environmental and economic changes
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Mining, PI, and other sorts of “farming” are resource generating activities. From these things come all the stuff in game (for the most part). And ISK helps the process of extracting, selling, and combining different resources. So ISK is important, but in and of itself it is useless. It is helpful in letting you buy resources somebody else gathered and letting you put those resources to whatever uses you see fit. Whether it is combining raw/intermediate goods into final goods and selling them for a profit…or taking those final goods and making other things in game go “boom”.
A ratter is generating ISK, but not resources. If he wants resources he will have to part with some of that ISK. So, that ISK will move from one player to the next and move around the game. This is why CCP has the graphic on velocity of ISK. How much does ISK on the market. However, that is a ratio so just remember it can go down if the denominator goes up, or the numerator goes down or both. So be careful looking at just that chart.
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Oh my…I need time to read and think about this… 
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Good point, maybe a ship mutaplasmid so we can do some weird ass builds but then it stays like that without changing.
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You haven’t been following the whole discussion, or have missed the places where it was stated that CCP is currently flailing about trying to correct some of the errors they’ve made in the past decade.
Massive ISK creation isn’t a huge problem, but it is a problem. It’s been a problem since 2018, 2017, and even 2012. Putting a dent in the trend line and shifting the trend line to a parallel course doesn’t address the issue - which is the massive imbalance in the rate of wealth growth between regions of the game (as well as the massive wealth accumulation itself, of course). As a side note, the trend actually has decreased, and is less steep now, which is a good thing overall.
Keep in mind that when CCP puts out an MER showing the CPI has been stable(ish) for years, they mean relative to the ISK supply. That doesn’t mean that things that were 5 million ISK 10 years ago didn’t go to 10 million and now 15 million. It means ISK supply grew at roughly the same rate.
When 90% of that ISK supply is happening due to krabs in Null, you get massive economic imbalances between new and vet players. If the same (and other) regions weren’t also pumping out ridiculous quantities of goods, new players would barely be able to participate.
The flip side of that (and one of the legs of this thread), is that when you can accumulate ISK and goods at that rate, but have very little reason to expend them, even if the economy isn’t actually “broken” you still end up with truly stupendous amounts of wealth stockpiled, mostly in Null. Make five billion a week and only spend 1 billion of it, for 5+ years, leads to some ridiculous wealth levels.
That’s why the point of the thread is “the economy isn’t broken” - prices haven’t spiraled out of control, things are much as they have been. It does need to be cut back in places, for the above reasons. But seeing as roughly 3/4 of EVE’s players are “economically oriented”, choking off the economy seems unwise.
The actual problem that led to the massive wealth buildup is that there’s very little reason to expend/consume that wealth in destructive activities. Other than the 10% or less of the player base who engage in PvP ‘for fun’, profit, or ego-stroking, and the 5% who end up in it by mistake, the rest of the player base can pretty much ignore PvP, destruction, and losses while they go on building wealth.
Since the game was designed that “losses due to player activity” was a key part of the economic balancing, that obviously leads to long-term problems. CCP is trying to correct that now with “surprise destruction!” events - in my opinion that’s entirely the wrong way to go about it.
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Since I’m an individual, speaking my own opinion and not on behalf of anyone, and tend to disagree with virtually everybody (“carebears” and lame high-sec ‘PvP’ wanna-bes both) it’s hard to guess which group of “you people” you’re mentally targeting here. Oh well, that’s the PvP mindset I guess. Apparently you can’t distinguish between a ‘carebear’ and someone who’s calling for more and better PvP because hey, a target’s a target, right?
Still having problems with actual facts, I see. By the way, when I point out that your facts are wrong, time and again, and then tell you that the argument you come back with “I’m an expert on this, trust me, I’m right” isn’t supportable, I’m not attacking your intelligence as you’ve claimed. I’m pointing out your facts and your argument-support technique are wrong. You could avoid this simply by checking your facts first, rather than endlessly stating incorrect facts and then trying to “prove” them right by saying “I have years of doing this, I train warriors, I know what I’m talking about”.
When you say “wardecs stuff was literally all they did” you’re so far off the beam, you’re not even headed in the right direction. 2.0 was about criminal activity/suspect flags, and it caused most of the lame, high-sec PvPers to almost immediately cease all suspect activity because it meant they could be shot at by actual combat ships with actual guns! Good heavens! None of those PvPers want anything like that to happen! So they bailed. They quit playing. PvP activity went down. Login and player activity went up. Had virtually nothing to do with wardecs at all (except for some side-effects with remote reps and stuff.)
The Wardec changes you’re talking about were released with Inferno (early 2012). Retribution/CW 2.0 was released at the end of 2012. You might need a refresher on Retribution/Crimewatch 2.0, here you go. No extra charge!
Honestly, go back and read some of the things you’ve written about carebears in the past year, how “warriors” are an elite class, how even though your facts are always wrong, you’re still right, because hey you’re a PvPer! Superiority complex indeed. If you honestly must know, I don’t care about PvP at all. Not even enough to ‘despise’ you. PvP is a non-factor in the very minimal activities I bother to take part of in EVE.
The only reason I keep poking the lame, high-sec PvPers is exactly because of this snotty superior attitude they show all the time about lazy, disgusting greedy farming carebears hiding in high sec looking for easy profits, while the PvPers themselves are doing the exact same thing. As Teckos Peck said above “oh the irony”. Other than that I pretty much only care about the game and PvP from a theoretical, game-design viewpoint, and from that view the current PvP setup (and the ‘PvP’ types it attracts), sucks and is bad for the game.
And if you’ve got a decent idea about distress beacons and bounty hunters, lets have a link to it and see if it’s any good. Always nice to see actual new ideas rather than decade-old prejudices and incorrect ‘facts’.
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Turn based games are better.
Man Id PvP to hell and back if combat was turn-based.
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im playing a lot o chess since the queen gambit 
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Found the botter.
It absolutely is a resource. It functions exactly like any other resource in the game, with the sole difference being that it’s not a physical item you have to carry around in your cargo.
And individuals aren’t allowed to print their own currency.
lmao
You is you. And you is a carebear.
You people constantly add these little jabs when referring to anyone who’s harvesting you, because it’s literally the only “victory” you can have over them. You can’t fight back in-game, your “arguments” on the forums consist mostly of whining, so this is all you have left; you throw a “lame” or a “griefer tears” or a “gankbaby” here and there in your forum posts, and then hide behind the anonymity force field. You’re like the kid who throws a rock at the other kids making fun of them, while hiding behind their mother’s legs.
Cringy as hell.
You’ve been told over and over again that what you’re doing is not posting facts. When you post data, that’s posting facts, yes. But then you try to extrapolate that action into claiming that the conclusions you draw from that data, many of which are things that are to happen in the future, are also factual.
It’s a neat little debate trick, but it’s not going to work on everyone.
Except none of that actually happened, you sensationalist liar.
The suspect system was an absolute bonus for baiters, who went from killing an occasional barge or mining Thorax, to baiting much more expensive targets. PvPers didn’t quit because of that; they came back in record numbers. I know this because it’s literally what pulled me and a bunch of my friends out of our WoW break at the time, and we were reconnecting with many others who did the exact same thing. So I’m curious exactly what “fact” you’re pulling when you say dumb ■■■■ like
because you literally have no idea what you’re talking about, since your entire experience with PvP consists of being someone else’s victim. If you weren’t, and actually understood aggression mechanics and PvP mentality, you’d know that the suspect flag doesn’t at all act as an inhibitor to high-sec PvPers with the exception of a select few areas where the most prolific death squads operate (e.g. the Jita undock). We can fly around with suspect flags (and often do) and be completely untouched by anyone, because most of the players in this game ■■■■ themselves the second they see someone acting dangerously, and would never risk shooting a criminal due to the perceived risk. That’s why it’s called suspect baiting, and not suspect being a victim.
Facts, lol. In the past few weeks you’ve posted like one chart, and are trying to tie the information held within to every single thing you say. Are you new at this, or what?
There you go again. I said that warriors were often considered to be an elite class throughout history, but I never said that EVE PvPers are an elite class, or that EVE PvPers are the same as real-life warriors, or any other connection you’re trying to make to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacy as an EVE player. The entire thing was structured in a manner to set people like you off to rail about the “gankbabies,” as you are wont to do.
But PvPers absolutely are a better class of gamer in EVE than carebears, because they see, experience, and understand more of the game than the latter.
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Are they errors? People say, X is an error and sometimes they are just wrong. Lots of Very Serious People say the trade deficit is a problem. But…I run a trade deficit with my grocery stores. I run a trade deficit with my local gas stations, dry cleaners, pet supply store, etc. Are these “problems”? I don’t think so…in fact, I’d say these are very good things. So a country runs a trade deficit - people want to buy stuff from other countries more than people in those other countries want to buy stuff made in the country in question…so what? Here is another factor often over looked. The current and capital accounts must sum to zero. That is investment has to, ultimately, offset the current account deficit. Is that bad? Usually, at the root of all this “this is bad” is often…bigotry. They are different than us! They are buying up America [or whatever country]! And so forth.
So…where is the problem…
Based on what? Why is it is “massive” - i.e., too much? There appears to be no appreciable inflation over most of this time span? ISK creation took a giant it in 2019 and did not revert back to the original trend.
Is it? Is it really? I know people ■■■■ bricks over Goons and Delve, but the population of Delve was extremely dense compared to other areas of the game where players were much more dispersed. Density IRL often goes hand - in - hand with higher economic growth (and it is a bit of mystery as to why). Nothing was stopping other groups from doing something similar. And we really should look at groups vs. regions. That is were Goons acquiring all that much more wealth on a per-capita basis than other groups?
They use a Laspeyres index and it doesn’t really include the money supply in the calculations.
That is the Laspeyres index for multiple items. The “p’s” refer to prices and the “q’s” refer to quantities, there is no variable relating to the money supply. So if the CPI is roughly stable and an item saw it’s price go up, then to remain stable that price increase had to be offset somewhere else with a price decrease.
You seem to be thinking of real GDP growth and the money supply. If real GDP (actual output) and the money supply grow at roughly the same rate inflation should be pretty stable over time.
Okay…but nothing CCP is suggesting will really address that. Want to address it empty the wallets and hangars of veteran players and simply destroy those assets and that ISK. Problem solved. What? Too much? No kidding.
Trying to impose scarcity on this situation will simply exacerbate the problem. The guy with 150 billion in liquid ISK and 25 billion in ships and modules is not going to suffer nearly as much if his income stream shrinks 50% and at the same time the guy with barely 100 million ISK in liquid ISK and 25 million in ships also sees his income stream shrink by 50%.
Sure, you could nerf NS ISK creation, but if you nerf it too much so that the money supply starts to shrink appreciably you’ll get deflation. And deflation is bad. As in Great Depression bad. Think of it this way, suppose you go out and spend 5 billion ISK on inputs to make stuff. But when you get done and bring it to market you can only sell it for 4 billion. You lost 1 billion. You’ll soon stop buying and making stuff. Everyone worries about hyper-inflation but never stop to look at deflation.
And what do you think will happen if you stomp on NS ability to create wealth? Those players can and will start looking to make ISK in HS. Way back in the day that is exactly what I did. I did invention in HS and made my ISK there and had fun in NS.
This idea of “fixing things” for new players in a game like EVE is really, really hard because there is nothing stopping the older rich players from taking advantage of those things for new players.
I disagree. With the liquid ISK I have piled up I don’t care when I lose a ship, at least in terms of the ISK. Getting taken out of the fight is annoying, but hey that’s the game. But reshipping is not the issue since I have plenty of ISK. I hardly ever even put for SRP, just can’t be bothered with the hassle.
When I didn’t have that level of liquid ISK…yeah, losing a ship and SRP were quite important.
I agree with this…but I don’t see what the problem is with ISK creation. Surprisingly it seems to be working in that the primary issues surrounding the creation of money in and economy is not present. We don’t have issues with inflation or deflation. And if having a pile of ISK in one’s wallet means one can absorb and loss easily and keep playing the game vs. quitting…where is the issue with that?
Can you build something with ISK? No. Can you buy something with ISK that you can then build something with? Yes. Therefore ISK is not a resource, but a means of facilitating transactions.
Holy mother ■■■■…in game they certainly do. Every rat you kill with a bounty generates de novo ISK.
Pot meet kettle.
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Deflation is absolutely-bonkers-awesome in an economic system that functions solely by virtue of broken windows needing replacement.
Did that drop in “value” happen when while you were building? Because if so, you didn’t lose anything at all if the 4 billion can buy the same basket of goods that would take 5 billion to buy when you started.
That’s not a metric for judging whether something is a resource or not. It might not be a raw resource, but it’s a resource nonetheless.
No ■■■■? Obviously I wasn’t referring to the game when I said that, and the entire point of my argument was that this is a reason why ISK in EVE doesn’t meet the definition of currency. Currency is either fiat, or backed by a resource, neither of which applies to ISK, which has its own intrinsic value, because it’s created/acquired like any other resource in the game, through labor, and not minted by some kind of central authority as a promissory note.
The closest thing to a true currency in EVE is PLEX.
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No true scotsman…
There are different methods of payment and currencies are exchangable, in many rates. ISK is the most popular currency in EVE.
PLEX is a form of “premium” currency. You could compare it with gold bullion. Or the money of different, economically stable country in an economy that is dealing with hyperinflation of the native currency.
That’s just arguing semantics.
We think of ISK as a currency in EVE based on its role, and stated functionality as the “money” of this game. But ISK doesn’t exist, or function as, currency in any conventional understanding of the concept. Like I said, individuals can’t print their own currency. Yet for some reason in EVE they can.
It is not printing tho, that would be too simple, and that wouldnt be allowed. Creation of money is tied in game to something else than only production of bits or registers.
Instead, it is form of exchange. You exchanged work, time you had to spend, for this form of asset exchangable further.
Printing money is actually quite expensive.
Didn’t press Reply for Destiny’s post.
This is not true, or maybe it may be true for where you live, but in general it’s not true.
Not just because of cryptos, which are being treated as currency and also used as such …
… (and are being “printed”, but we call it mining) …
… but because there are no laws preventing you from writing “10 DestinyDollars” onto a piece of paper …
… and getting someone else to accept it as valued currency.
There are tons of alternative currency models practised out there in the world, but people simply never get to hear of those …
… and why would they anyway. Usually those are run by small and tight communities.
I should’ve been more clear. When I said “print your own currency,” I meant the currency, and not a currency. As in, a dollar, pound, mark, whatever. You are not allowed to print those for yourself.
But in the game, when you rat for example, you effectively print the currency. You’re not printing a DestinyDollar, or a SolBuck, but rather the actual, government-issued currency of the land (or space). If ISK were an actual currency, however, it would be paid by a central authority that is limited and/or regulated in some manner, and/or backed by tangible resources, much like an actual promissory note. But in EVE, we create ISK in the same manner that we create, say, Tritanium. Yet we don’t consider Tritanium to be a currency.
Anyways, since we’re on this topic, here’s a nice clip that fully explains the economics behind all of this in a concise, easy-to-digest manner. It’s acted as my main source of inspiration for my finance-oriented education, and in fact pretty much everything I do in life:
