According to some, who maintain that pay4advatage = pay2win, a person who has 1 more skill point than another person, is winning regardless of how that skill point was obtained.
They are merely trying to put a candy wrapper on what their real goal is. A steaming pile of dog-■■■■ known as “equality of outcome.” Where everyone has to have an equal amount. And that amount will be nothing, for everyone.
What gets me is that ‘inequality’ should be a motivator…not a demotivator. Just as it is ( or is that used to be ) in the real world.
The western world has turned on it head. People are no longer self motivated. They want the government, and other entities to take care of them. It’s the product of 2 to 3 generations of people given everything they want on a whim, not ever hearing the word “no,” not being taught self control, patience and the discipline of self management.
They can’t even manage their own emotions. It’s everyone else’s responsibility to do that for them. See “Safe-Space” culture. And EvE is an interesting mirror that reflects those kinds of cultural shifts.
Look at how people loose it when they loose a ship. Aiko has a whole blog dedicated to that crazy entitled behavior. Look at CCP, constantly running around trying to appease the latest “twitch partner” that had a meltdown over something completely mundane. Look at the store, selling all these skill points and plex for instant gratification.
Look at Null sec. It’s a stagnate cesspool of gila grinders. No one pushing for wars, or territorial claims. Even the farce of the CSM is nothing more than to appease the null block, lest they become upset.
The trig invasion was fantastic because it pushed people outside their comfort zones, but boy, did CCP get an earful from these people.
Look at blackout. You’ve never seen a bigger group of crybabies whining and complaining and rage quiting over it. Because they don’t want to have to actually put in any effort. They want it all handed to them.
And when CCP made the mistake of selling skillpoints and plex to these people because they want instant gratification, they cry “Pay2Win!”
You can’t appease a person of entitlement. And you can’t appease a culture that is drowning in it.
EvE is not pay to win. Pay to win implies a significant advantage given to those who pay, over those who don’t, and said advantage must involve benefits which are not obtainable via normal gameplay. Obviously, Alphas should not count, as they are clearly intended to be a trial, and letting one player have a free try does not mean everyone else is playing unfair. Furthermore, every alpha has the ability to get rich and become Omega. On top of that, even if you spend tens of thousands of dollars as some have, it is of little benefit as the game requires actual skills, more than isk spent.
It’s like a game of darts, and it’s $3 for ten darts, and people can get a free throw - that’s not pay to win, that’s giving out free samples. Courts have ruled on this, and I’m sure CCP’s attorney is familiar with the relevant case law - your money spent on the game is analogous to tickets purchased at an amusement park.
You can purchase as many as you want - good luck!
You can also get virtually every item in eve for $. I’m pretty sure even DI has some things that you can’t ourtight buy. Eve is just insanely p2w.
Yet when it came to DI you yourself pointed out that the insane time it takes to max a character makes it p2w. With Eve you just shrug it away. Very hypocritical.
No I don’t, and yes I believe you. You probably don’t play echoes, so labeling that game as p2w is fine for you. But because you play eve, you can’t do the same there, even though it is blatantly p2w.
It absolutely is.
It is enough that you can simply buy an advantage with $. It doesn’t has to be exclusively available for cash.
Pretending otherwise is just pure cope
I disagree, and certainly am not the only one. It devalues the meaning of “pay to win” to extend it so far. There are actual pay to win games, which sell superior items and “gold ammo” not obtainable without paying.
EvE doesn’t do that.
It’s a “freemium” game - free to play, with an optional subscription. You seem to be arguing that all freemium games are “pay to win”, but there is a difference.
It’s not just a freemium game. It doesn’t stop at the subscription
You can literally buy every item in the game via PLEX. You can buy SP via that route, and CCP directly sells SP they create out of thin air now.
There are multiple items that are cash shop exclusive, like for example the extractors. Just because players can resell them doesn’t change the fact that they all originated from the cash shop and where not acquired trough game play.
And CCP has now even started to sell packs with exclisive implants, that can not be resold, that can not be aquired anywhere in the game.
Using p2w for eve isn’t diluting the term. Eve is absolutely blatently p2w.
I’m sorry, that’s just the facts
That’s technically true, but misleading. The items you buy in game come from other players, who VOLUNTARILY sell them to you. Those players could refuse, in fact, I question why they keep selling me so many Catalysts. That’s their choice.
CCP should stop that, I agree, but I also think skill points in game are relatively meaningless. Just because you can fly a titan, that doesn’t mean you should.
Regardless, at most I would agree that CCP has tried to introduce elements of pay to win, but they really haven’t crossed the line, or gone very far at all. When you say the game is pay to win, you really ignore what a real pay to win game would look like.
That is also technically true but also misleading, since you can’t filter or control who you sell your Cats too via market order. I’m pretty sure there where requests from people who asked for such a feature… As usual they did not acvount for alts.
SP are the source of an incredible amount of bonuses that are extremely relevant, as you very vell know, since you are a highsec ganker where every damage % counts.
You can’t just shrug this away.
Being able to instantly aquire this bonuses by swiping a credit card and bypass the SP trickle or farming for injectors is just blatantly p2w
i have to say, it takes a special kind of person who feels that others playing a game more are somehow “cheating”. I guess someone who has more hours of work each week is “cheating” in real life as well, especially if they are going to get more dollars than someone with the same job but who has less hours?
Sure you can. Don’t sell to the public if you don’t want to.
Hardly. You could do the same thing by subscribing for a few months.
So I really don’t see the problem. Also, once again, the skill points are generally coming from other players, who voluntarily trade them to others, so it’s not pay to win if you are buying items from other players.
Also, I’ve never used skill injectors, and I’m doing quite well in the game, so if it was pay to win, how come other people aren’t outplaying me?
I read all the way through this thread expecting to write a summary of it when I got to here. But @Aiko_Danuja did a marvelous job of that a few ports above.
IF you think paying a subscription to a game is P2W then I disagree but your beliefs don’t really change my enjoyment of Eve.
If you think the ‘base game is alpha’ and the paid sub is all p2w? see above
for me it comes down to a basic question that faces a LOT of adult gamers.
“Which do you have more of, time or money”
If you want to catch up and you have money to do so (and subscribe) then fill yer boots. If you do not then you can play for free and still have a fairly enjoyable time. I do find the argument about the +12 implants almost compelling but then I remembered that I could just buy an sp injector in game and pass all the benefits of the implants in about 30 seconds (rt click, confirm).
But when you cannot even agree on what the words you are arguing about mean then there is little chance you are going to convince anyone of anything. But, this being the internet? Of ya pop, have fun little duckies.
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But buyers resources dont come from ingame. A buyer can use real world inequalities to gain a leverage over other players
If you actually read the thread then you will know that EVE has many instances that can be considered pay2win. The whole two class system of free and paid players is just one example and I can see how that isn’t particularly convincing for people who know the history of EVE as a subscription game.
Non the less, seen from a neutral stand point (something only like 3-4 people in this thread seem to be capable of) the current two tier system, SP time gates, PLEX, packs all resemble well knows p2w mechanics used around the gaming industry. Compared to a lot of other online games, EVE has actually quite many and is probably on the top list of how much you can actually acquire for $.
But I respect your right to believe that this is all not p2w and your need for cognitive comfort by making the appropriate excuses that ease your mind. No need to repeat them, we have seen most of them already in this thread.
It’s probably the sign of the aging player population. A lot of EVE players started to play this game when they where young and had a lot of time and not a lot of money, now they have less time but more expendable money.
I can understand your desire that EVE should adopt to your changed circumstances. But have you given thought to what your younger self would have thought of this back when you started your EVE journey?
Does EVE have to adopt to our current circumstances at the cost of losing people who are the way we used to be? I would have never picked EVE up if it was like it is today, I would never have experienced this game.
Declaring p2w mechanics as a catch up mechanism is particularly puzzling to me.
They could implement all sorts of interesting catch up mechanics that actually involve gameplay. There would be so much possibility. But what we get is “get out your credit card boy!! Oh you are poor? No catch up mechanic for you, sorry”.
So what would it actually cost to “catch up”? like couple thousand bucks? Is that a good look? Who is this for?
I’m pretty sure deep down even you know how ridiculous this is, but since you need an argument to justify this blatant pay2win mechanics, you can’t listen to that voice and repeat the catch up narrative CCP and the community at large presented you as a coping mechanism.
And I don’t want to hear a “CCP should implement some in-game catch up mechanic”, sure they should. But there is no incentive for CCP to implement this, because they already convinced you and the rest of the community and themselves that they have one because you all cheered and bought the line about how good this is for new players.
At the same time this completely diluted the game experience. Pretending this is a valid catch up mechanic basically did double damage. It prevented the implementation of an actual mechanic that would help new players and it made the game even more p2w.
Redefining what pay2win means so your beloved game isn’t covered is basically the only constant you find when it comes to gaming forums of every game in existence. If that already discourages your from discussing then you probably should leave the thread.
I know you care about the game. Sadly your defense of this mechanics helps destroy the soul of the game and you don’t even see that.
Maybe one day when they add sould-bound overpowered ships to the cash shop you will understand. Maybe not and you will still make excuses, the line seems to be in different places for everyone.
Yes, a lot of p2w mechanics involve time gates. You could wait a few months, but if you want it right now, ready your credit card.
That used to be the case. Now they sell it directly.
Here is how the frog was boiled:
As you can see, nothing has changed, it’s all still the same.
Woooosh. It takes a special kind of person to totally misunderstand the point being made. But don’t worry…you are in good company here.
How utterly, utterly, ridiculous and absurd. Look…I join a game of Monopoly that’s been going for 20 years and all the properties have hotels on them, all the train stations are owned, and all that’s left available is collecting $200 on passing GO or winning second prize in a beauty contest…you have ZERO problem with the sheer inequality of all that, yet you whine because some noob player can buy a gold mascot that they can land on hotels or ‘go to jail’ in.
This isn’t monopoly kid