Your queen said you can’t win EVE. Get back in line, pawn.
Mr Epeen 
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I finished at St.Agnes on Lake Geneva.
Ok, let’s assume for a moment that this is genuinely your concern, that this is actually about people being able to catch up and not just a charade to justify p2w mechanics. I’m not convinced, but I’m quite happy to be proven wrong.
Let’s take this apart for a second.
There is a problem:
- new players join a 20 year old game and need means to close the gap between them and older players
And there is a proposed solution to this:
- hand over piles of cash to make a dent into the problem
How is this the solution you prefer? Because there could be a variety of other solutions to address this issue that doesn’t involve people having to hand over thousands of dollars to a game they just started, just to not even get anywhere close to what a 20 year vet has.
I’m not a game designer, so I can’t give you an exact solution that is fail prove and can’t be abused by veteran players. But why not address the SP system itself? Why does it take years to even have the base skills complete? It could be changed to weeks, and from there on it’s just variety of ships and weapons.
You can’t honestly believe that when a new player joins and he asks how they can catch up, that an answer they want to here is “pay more money, lots of it to actually get anywhere”.
Do you know what they will call EVE if you tell them that?
The mere fact that you defend this pay2win mechanics as a way to catch up is what makes me suspicious that you don’t actually care about the problem. Because it’s hands down the worst possible solutions for the majority of players who may join EVE. The majority of people in the world don’t have a disposable income of the size needed to even make a dent into this issue. This should be obvious if you actually cared, so why are you defending this then?
But as I said, feel free to prove my suspicion wrong
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We are in agreement then.
But uh, life isn’t fair. And to pull everyone down to ensure fairness will do exactly what you said. Corrode diversity.
I’m ready to win guys. How much is it going to cost me?
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I could buy ten keepstars, and they wouldn’t be of any benefit.
So pay to get stuff sure, but not pay to win.
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I never said anything was a ‘solution’. You keep mis-representing my points. My point all along is that there’s never been a level playing field in the first place.
I don’t care for a ‘solution’, as I do not think there is even a problem to be solved. That was the whole point of posting this thread.
But in saying that, you are admitting that even handing over thousands of dollars makes little or no difference. An individual is not going to suddenly take over Eve even if they bring in 100 trillion ISK worth of cash. And that’s not even what most have discussed…its been discussion of piddling little inputs that would barely match 1% of someone with 20 years in Eve.
Why wouldn’t they…if they don’t have the TIME to mine or haul ? Again and again and again and again and again…you just ignore the time issue.
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what point? 1 person said its pay to win by playing more than others. No, its not.
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It’s an exercise in futility trying to talk with Karak.
He’s a troll and his only motivation here is to ■■■■ up the thread with his backwards and logically flawed posts. It’s not about a meeting of the minds, or having an intelligent conversation. It’s all about ramming his POV down everyone’s throat and then crying they are in denial and on copium if they don’t agree with him.
It’s best just to block him and move on to more intellectual debates.
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Yeah as I thought. Your whole concern about people catching up is just a charade. Thanks for proving my suspicion right. This whole thing it’s only about justifying pay2win mechanics. The concerns are just a lie.
Ironically, this whole thread is a prime example of how extremely far EVE is already gone in that regard.
Every new player will look at your initial post and immediatly recognize this this is the most pay2win ■■■■■■■■ they have ever seen.
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“Intellectal debates” 
You guys can’t even handle the reality about how you lie to yourself about monetization mechanics in a computer game. What a great basis for an “intellectual debate”.
At least I can still see your tears filled posts about me. Keep the salt flowing.
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Seems people misunderstand the phrase ‘Pay To Win’ and are fixated on the word ‘Win’. That word is very subjective and covers a vast amount of options all based on each players own personal preference. One thing it doesn’t do is make you King of all with God powers.
In Eve, P2W is actually a short-cut that bypasses already established mechanics for faster character development. I’m talking about Skill Extractors / Injectors, SP game packs, etc.
Mike basically hit the nail on the head with this statement.
Player A and Player B both need a Covert Ops Scan Scout so they both create a 2nd account.
Player A can barely afford the Omega sub for it and starts the long task of grinding isk for months on end to pay for skills and equipment.
Player B, in real life, has unlimited funds available and buys a bunch of Skill Injectors along with SP packs and Skill Books from CCP’s cash shop, doesn’t even have to leave the station and within one hour of character creation has a Mastery level 5 Covert Ops Scan Scout complete with a ship that’s fit with top line equipment.
That my friends is P2W. It’s also monetization in the purest form which bypasses the player market. Now you can try to dress it up with a spin on words, do a little dance of smoke and mirrors, etc, whatever. Still doesn’t negate the fact that it’s P2W wrapped up in monetization disguised with perfectly crafted lies.
When CCP first implemented the NES, they said it would only be for Vanity items, they lied.
When CCP first implemented Daily Tasks for SP’s and then later removed it with the promise of never adding it in-game, they lied.
When CCP first added SP’s to Event Log-in rewards and said it would only be for events, they lied.
CCP also said they would never market SP’s or make items soulbound and bypass the Player Market, they lied.
The list goes on…
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Which is precisely what you did.
Your player A and B are not joining a level playing field in the first place. That is the dishonest part of all the P2W arguments. You are arbitrarily selecting two people in a world in which I already stated…as far back as the OP…that there is already ‘unfair advantage’ even by virtue of comparing the grind time people have available.
Add on to that the fact that both your player A and B join a universe with vast Mega-Blob corporations that already own half of space, some people already have trillions of ISK, and people are already flying around in Paladins, Titans, own Fortizars, etc, etc, etc…and frankly the fact that your player B queue jumped player A by a month is just piddlingly insignificant and laughable.
This never becomes irrelevant: https://imperium.news/alod-pay-to-win/
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Yes they are, in-game they both start out the same.
My post was about using real life money.
It was more than one month and quite frankly, that’s what P2W in Eve is, using real life money to gain a distinct advantage, not to mention it’s monetization which bypasses the player market.
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OMG…you mean someone can ‘pay’ $2000 and NOT win ? Say it aint so.
omg this is gold
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Yes it is stunning. It is definitely a psychological thing, because these peoples are not stupid, they are debating logically about other stuff on forum, but when it comes to this their brain refuses to accept any arguments that would prove that they are wrong (or rather that their beloved games is shameful pay2win).
Look, pay2win is just how the term is named. There is no game that would actually let you pay cash to win. Nobody would even do that. If it was about winning the actual game, then the only game which would be pay2win would be singleplayers such as Witcher3 that would simply allow you to pay 100$ to get the juicy “you won and you saved the princess or whatever” screen and ending credits. But that is total nonsense don’t you think? I guess you don’t sigh.
The “win” was always meant in a partial way. In MOBA games like CS-GO or TF2 (dunno if they have pay2win mechanics, using only as an example) or World of Tanks or all these survival royal battle games, there are rounds in which one of the teams or players wins the round. In these games the “winning” is easier to understand. Yet you are still not winning the game.
In MMOs where some doesn’t even allow PvP at all, it is, for the “EVE is not pay2win” peoples at least, harder to see this. In EVE specifically there is a lot of PvP and you can significantly increase your chances by paying cash. You can guess how it is called. But even in MMOs without pvp, players have goals and are working towards them. Reaching that goal is a win. Someone else swiping their credit card to reach that goal before you is paying to “win”.
I am sure you won’t get it, but I tried.
So he paid for win and lost. Is this supposed to be an argument against the fact that EVE is pay2win or what?
The fact that winning is not guaranteed when you pay cash does not mean it is not paying to win. I am certain you realize that because nobody can be that stupid.
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If I pay for a pizza and I don’t get a pizza…then you can’t really complain that I’m eating a pizza and you’re not. It doesn’t require a rocket scientist to grasp that.
Then you are still paying to eat.
Try again.
Mr Epeen
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