The Problems with Edencom Ships

Some people do. Books do, afterall, still exist and get read. But it seems as though a majority of people don’t take the time to read through books, no matter how well written.

I tried to write my post as best I could, but I am quite clearly not the most skilled of writers. Which is why that phenomenon is sad and unfortunate. I lack the skill to write for a broad audience.

I actually didn’t know that remote missile comps didn’t exist. I just sort of assumed they did since missiles had their own versions of everything else.

And yes, I agree that vortons should get all their own stuff just like missiles do.

It seems like a neat idea, but the issue therein is that people will just end up exclusively using that ammo, even if there are multiple targets to shoot. Because of the way the multi-target ammo works currently, the ships just never do enough damage to justify the effort of using them (Both in terms of isk cost, and the effort one must put forth to avoid getting ganked. As I said in an earlier reply, these ships are essentially CODEnip).

If they fix the bugs and make the ships apply damage well enough, then the multi-target ammo gains a useful use-case in both PvE and PvP, at which point they shouldn’t have a single-target ammo because that makes them too strong and versatile. The point is that they trade universal usability for power in a specific situation (With the present issue being that they suck even in said situation, compared to most other ships).

Nor have I, although I plan to fly one in half a month or so as I accrue the skills (currently working on optimizing my Loki). Hopefully by then some of their issues will have been resolved, but even if they haven’t been I will fly them anyways because they’re cool god damnit.

And yeah, I have no idea how they made it past testing. When I lament this, many of my friends laugh and say “Lol, you think CCP actually tests the things they make?”

While I’d like to hold faith that CCP as a company can put forth the effort to quality control their releases, in the case of both EDENCOM and Triglavian ships, they really really dropped the ball hard. For Trigs, they got far too much, and for EDENCOM they got far too little. It took marginal effort for me to go into a fitting tool and plug in the numbers to figure out the damage output these ships have in various scenarios against various targets. They do have situations where they can work, but those situations are not common and are extremely difficult to achieve. It baffles me how they could have thought these would ever be so broken as to justify their exorbitant production costs.

As I explained to another who made this claim, the costs I described were in terms of production, not market price.

This means that even if the ships were several years old, and far past the flavor of the month phase, even if we assume a perfectly optimized market filled with buyers and sellers thus ensuring fairly tight margins on all the modules and ammunition, these ships would still be some of the most expensive in the game while yet being some of the weakest. Due almost exclusively to the rarity (and thus high price) of Trig salvage required for their blueprints and the vast volumes of said salvage that is required for those blueprints. The T2 ammunition, as described, being the exception due to what seems to very clearly be either a bug or an egregious oversight on the part of whoever decided to make their BPC produce 200 rounds instead of the traditional 5000 (which even T2 Trig ammo BPCs produce).

I will add an addendum to my proposed solution for Vorton behavior at the end of my post

Vorton Target Priority. I do not currently know how Vorton projectors actually prioritize their targeting when presented with more than 4 valid targets to arc to. If it is pure RNG, then I propose this be rectified to target those things to with the biggest sig radius, thus better reflecting the weapon’s nature as a “lightning” gun. Big sig radius targets would cause it to prefer to arc to them, as a lightning rod guides lightning strikes to itself.

The issue is that it may create more lag on the server.

It should be possible to do it effectively, but it may require a bit of work from devs to make it actually scale in battle.

The components that are used in production do not have a fixed price - their price is based on demand. If nobody was building the Edencom ships, then it would affect the cost of those inputs.

They do.
The price is fixed by CCP in term of hours to farm one item . This price is reflected into isk by the simple calculus cost_of_farm = time × hourly cost.
If a batch of items requires one hour to be farmed, and you can easily do let’s say 25M raw isk in an hour of farming, then this batch of items is worth at least 30M raw isk.
(In the case of invasions, the term batch also contains LP).
So when the items required to produce a ship require AT LEAST 24 hours(random value) of full farm items, then the price of the item is at least 600M.

By the simple fact that there is time required to get the materials, those acquire a cost based on the opportunity cost.
Of course this is not the case for materials that are byproducts of an activity, but it does not seem to be the cost here.

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There are two sides to price though: demand, sure, but also supply. Players do indeed provide the demand side, and apparently there’s enough demand to get these novelty ships made.

Supply, however, is heavily influenced by CCP. If there were ten times as many A-type invulns available would the price stay the same? Likely no; I’m not claiming the price is perfectly elastic, but it is elastic.

Same with Edencom production components. If they were more widely available, prices would drop. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to call on CCP to tweak drop rates and lower ship cost.

As to the rest… well, the ships don’t appeal to me as they are but I’m not really screaming to get them fixed. I’m training them up – particularly the support skills – because I do somewhat anticipate some changes. We’ll see how that gambit works out. I’m not holding my breath, but I also don’t have anything higher in priority to train before a remap.

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OP

  1. thks for writing a detailed and well written post
  2. you found that scoot is rude and is wrong. Sorry Anderson but Scoot is NOT a usual “troller” on this forum, and even if he fights in the wrong alliance currently (:wink: :wink: ;)) i agree with him 99.9% of the time. And here again his answers, although caustic and very concise, seem valuable
  • cost is a question of supply/offer, player-driven market etc. If the ship is useful and prices are high, somepeople will build some and farm the activities to get the components, and prices will adjust etc. Scoot is right, give it some time. CCP has nothing to do with costs/prices. The market is player-driven
  • no use in hi-sec? yes. and so what? aoe weapons are not used in hi sec: bombs, smartbombs etc. This is a ship with an aoe weapon, use it in low/null sec
  • bad damage application? not enough bonuses for webs/target painters etc? then bring friends or alts? This is a mmo, and combination of ships is usually a good idea.
  • no use in null sec? lol. Have you already flied a logi ship and seen 15 broadcasts at the same time because your fleet took bomb damage? Are you aware that the usual tactics in big fleet is to have all pilots anchoring on one guy? an edencom wing could force some fleets to spread up etc. I am not saying that it is easy, i am not saying that the ship is perfect, but as said Scoot this ship type is new, and eve players need some time to learn when and how to use them
    But yes, if you wanna use these ships solo for pve, this is not the best choice. But stealth bombers are neither a good choice for solo pve in hi sec, yes? and yet nobody does a post “hey stealth bombers are not useful, somethg has to change, yes?”. Nobody said “edencoms ships have been specifically created for pve in hi sec”. We have to find the place for them and it will take some time.

You didn’t read the posts directly above yours, did you?

I am missing something here. I am not trying to troll you.

Is it possible to farm the Edencom components individually? Are the Edencom components only used in the Edencom stuff? I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the Edencom stuff dropped with other stuff, randomly, so you farm it all together. I also thought that the Edencom components would be used in other industry, so even if nobody built Edencom ships, those items would still have a use.

yes edencom components are only used in edencom stuff. Check a thunderchild bpc, look at what it requires, and what this is used for besides .

Now look at the LP offer, and what it requires (ded lp store).
Triglavian Sublight Telemeter
Triglavian Transconduit Datacaster
Those are only used for edencom stuff offers.

So the only value of those items is in the edencom stuff.

  1. Thank you for reading it.

  2. I often have to deal with trolls, so I am used to staying calm and responding as best I can with well reasoned arguments. If those observing cannot observe reason, then there is nothing that could have been said in any case.

  • While this may be true, as others have pointed out above the value of an item that can only be gained by hard grinding is often determined by more than simple supply and demand. Not to mention that it is the relationship between the two that determines prices, not simply the amount of one or the other. The salvage necessary is exceedingly rare, and takes a long time to acquire, and the demand for them outstrips the ability of players to grind it by a fair margin. However the demand does not exceed the supply by enough to convince more players to go through the effort of grinding that salvage (as it only drops from a fairly difficult activity that has little to no payout otherwise). Thus, those few players who grind it will set the prices according to what they think they can get away with, and will stop grinding it if it’s not worth their time (IE, if they can’t make more doing that than other activities). Thus, the price is very high, and the price of all things derived from it is very high. Thus the production cost of the Ecom items is very very high. This can be remedied by either reducing the required volume of salvage required to get the BPCs, or by increasing the supply via increased drop rates, more things that drop them. Buffing the ships to encourage more people into the market will not really affect the price much (In fact, it will have a brief period of being much higher until players can react and start grinding them more).

-I also outlined how the ship is nigh unusable in low and null as well

-The ship is not useful solo or in a group, as I outlined in my post.

-Yes, I am actually a very highly experienced logisitics pilot. And as I said, a well disciplined fleet is sufficient to deal with vortons. They aren’t threatening enough to really cause panic. “Oh no, I lost 2% of my shield. Better spam shield broadcasts.”

-Their purpose is very much currently unclear, but I would like to see them be useful in PvE, as the Trig ships very much are (Although obviously not serving the same role or in the same capacity).

-Yes, I am actually a very highly experienced logisitics pilot. And as I said, a well disciplined fleet is sufficient to deal with vortons. They aren’t threatening enough to really cause panic. “Oh no, I lost 2% of my shield. Better spam shield broadcasts.”

Big talk is more appropriate when from a credible source, not a forum alt.

But there are 160 other bounces every 8 seconds with what seems to be the lowest intended fleet size given their tank. “But we soak the arcs with drones, we so disciplined.” You lost 70% of your drones after the first fleet warp, and stormbringers are made for attrition, not blapping.

I’ve seen one in Eve, a Thunderchild. My corp caught it being brought into J-space and we jumped it. It stood no chance since we outnumbered it… and had a Falcon and sniper Curse on grid.

It got jammed and then got neuted down quickly. We lost some drones, but that’s a small price to pay for a new billion ISK kill.

I wasn’t impressed by it at all. Maybe in a big fleet of them scattering damage everywhere it might stress logi… but they fit a niche at best.

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Yeah, I suppose you’ve got no reason to believe me since this is my main toon and not my dedicated logi alt XD

Discipline affects when people broadcast, and how they manage comms. A well disciplined fleet will see that the enemy fleet is comprised of a large number of edencom ships and realize that they probably shouldn’t turn into a gaggle of turkeys the second their shields drop by a few percent. A well disciplined fleet also won’t lose their drones, and will have them available to put out when the fight starts.

For example, if you have a fleet of 5 thunderchilds and 5 [Any other PvP fit battleship], each with 5 T1 logi (ospreys/augs) to support them. The 5 thunderchilds literally cannot, even when optimized to the highest possible degree, break even 3 t1 logis worth of reps (let alone T2). This becomes even worse when you consider that the fleets probably aren’t sitting perfectly still, and worse still when the thunderchilds can’t quite control where their arcs bounce to, and even worse when drones come into the mix since those will happily eat vorton bounces for next to 0 damage.

On the other hand, the 5 [Any other battleship]s can with focused fire easily break 5 T1 logis worth of reps and eventually destroy their opposing fleet.

“But the thunderchild is just meant to stress logi! You’re supposed to pair them with other battleships!”

Sure, but you know what does that better? For each thunderchild, just have a blatantly superior [Any other battleship] shoot a target that isn’t the primary. Exact same effect achieved, except to an even better degree since each ship can control where all their DPS goes, and apply it better than the vortons ever could.

There is simply no good reason in a PvP fleet to take an EDENCOM ship when the 1 and only thing it is theoretically useful for can already be achieved to a higher degree by more or less any other hull of the same class in the game.

As I stated in the OP, these ships are intended to be dedicated damage output boats. But they perform this task exceptionally poorly. They simply cannot fulfill the one thing CCP designed them to do.

I mean, almost any other ship would probably die in that scenario. Jams and neuts when you have no support are death for just about anyone. Although in the thunderchild’s case it can still target the jammer, and the vorton’s hit without targeting so there’s a good chance your jams actually had no real effect. The neuts, however, were the deathblow. These ship’s weapons require cap, not as much as lasers, but still a fair amount of it. Enough that it doesn’t take very many neuts to disable them.

I went through and double-checked my math on the production cost of Tech 2 Vorton ammunition.

I was wrong, it’s actually worse than I thought. Here’s the spreadsheet detailing it:

Since 75% of the cost is in the raw materials (including fuel and even god damn RAMtech manufacturing), the “novelty” or newness of trig salvage is not the primary cause of the high price. Even if you assumed that trig salvage, invention materials, blueprints, etc. were all absolutely free, the ammo still costs 22k isk per shot at the barest possible minimum.

As before, the primary cause of this is the fact that each run of the ammunition produces only 200 shots, unlike EVERY other tech 2 ammo in the game, which produces 5000 per shot.

If the output of each run was in line with other Tech 2 ammunition, the cost per shot tanks to 902 isk per shot before the cost of invention (which raises it to 8.4k isk per shot, which is 100% in line with the costs of T2 trig ammunition. Double the price, but the weapon has a 7.5 cycle time as opposed to the trigs 3.7ish second cycle).

Of course, the price would fall further to be more in line with T2 ammunition of all the other weapons platforms once the event has ended and the ships begin to become more “normal”.