Yes the profit is in getting materials cheaper but using industry to convert materials into something they can sell better than just cheap materials is also part of the game.
The ore buyback thing is really prevalent in null because noobs have the ability to mine a lot of ore but not the ability to haul it very well. Also their reprocessing skills suck. So really it’s a symbiotic relationship. The industrialist gets a discount on ore but the miner gets a guaranteed buyer, doesn’t take a reprocessing loss themselves and doesn’t have to haul anything.
Well the miner can always not do the deal and mine crap highsec ore which they take a high loss reprocessing with their crap skills and facilities. So it is a win/win.
doesn’t change that if you can sell the input for more than you can sell the output (after taxes, moving the stuff, etc) then your industry jobs is at loss.
It’s not a loss. It’s selling something for more than it’s build cost. Profit. Also built items might move better or haul better isk/m3. So lower hauling cost fuel cost etc. So no there isn’t a ‘loss’ necessarily from building it for less than jita mineral price.
That’s why I’m saying “after taxes, moving the stuff”.
Doesn’t matter the price you got the items at . If you can get more money from the items by selling them at jita you are at loss.
I am not saying you are personally necessarily at loss. I’m saying, just because you have them cheaper does not mean you are not at loss. You can have the items for free and still be at loss when building stuff.
The loss is not a real loss but in potential profit. However if you do enough volume you can’t simply sell minerals in jita to maximise your profit as the market can’t eat the volume and would crash. Thus you have to diversify by converting the materials into many items to let their volumes eat your materials.
becasue the volume is too high for minerals. Move the compressed ore instead and you are at win, volume-wise. Especially if you can reprocess it with good skills and/or implants/rigs.
When I’m talking about volume I’m talking about trading volume of the material vs the amount your selling. Not the m3 of the material. You can’t sell too high of a % of the total demand for something before your supply causes the price to fall. Diversifying to different manufactured items will keep your materials flowing without over supplying the market with to much of any single item.
I know that.
And I tell you that, because of the volume of the item, the volume of its trades is low - for minerals at least. It’s better for many people to buy compressed ore and reprocess it, rather than buy the minerals.
They aren’t profiting because they are spending MORE time doing something to “undercut” my Jita costs, than simply finding other currently profitable items from Jita to build… in theory.
Obviously if there’s geopolitical reasons, such as building and operating out in Null…this isn’t comparable.
And people who are willing to add haulage to their costs to gain more profit… are also not factored in.
But Jita is the market, so we only have it to truly base information on what to produce and when and why.
… Seriously? or are you just trolling? Open up a few books on Economics, Industry, Conflicts, Diplomatics and how they all combine to influence the prices. This isn’t Geology and the subjectmatter can’t be transferred as you suggest.
Your assumptions across this thread are wrong and I’d suggest reading up on Economics and Industry in Real life. You can’t just ‘‘exclude’’ a parameter from an algorithm just because you don’t like what its doing to the end result. Thats not how economics nor industry works. Both are in a symbiotic relationship with eachother.
Jita != the EVE Market. It is the DUMPING grounds for all products that you QUICKLY want to sell.
To say otherwise is as stupid as assuming that EVE traders are stupid for selling at a price YOU don’t understand because you don’t open up books on the subject.
(nullsec)Alliances allow for larger fleets which allows for larger output of minerals by Miners e.g.
1.1 Those materials then get sold to Industrialists for the average UNIVERSE price.
1.2 Those industrialists process the ores and materials best they can and produce products with a guaranteed e.g. 10% profit margin on top of the material and production cost of producing the product.
1.3 Traders then buy up those products by contacting industrialists or simply looking on the markets to see where a seller/producer has underpriced products.
1.4 Traders then hire a Hauler to bring it from there to whereever the trader wants it to be.
1.4.1 Traders have to pay a Cost per Jump to the haulers for their services and risk. This price gets dictated by the ‘danger’ factor of the route, cargo, client of the hauler, such parameters.
1.5 Traders then have to bring up the price by the amount it cost them to even bring the product to the right place.
Mining fleets and Gankers put pressure on the market price of minerals. The more miners out there, the cheaper the mineral becomes (…demand vs supply)
It takes Time to produce anything. That time is also worth ISK.
Moon drills in highsec allow access to nullsec ores
4.1 This effects the prices for Megacyte, Zydrine and Nocxium a lot depending on how many people are active doing this.This reduces cost to produce for those mining e.g. (and eventually, industrialists aswell)
4.2 Prices are dictated by the Sellers and Buyers.
4.3 The Volume/Amount of the product sold at the dictated price, depends on the Consumers.
4.4 Gankers and Pirates pretty much dictate how many Consumers are going to drop by to buy stuff.
Wars/Conflicts destroy things, and with that, increase the overal price of a lot of products.
5.1 Selling near a war-torn area can obviously be more profitable than any well-known-dumping-grounds out there.
The price of a product is what the Miner, Industrialist, Hauler and Trader decide it to be. If thats below market, that doesn’t mean they are selling without a profit. It means they are getting their minerals/components for the products or the products themselves cheaper. This can be done by just agreeing to sell to friends at -25% average universe price.
Some products simply don’t move well. T2/faction Ammo vs ECM charges e.g.
There are many more points to make but i’m gonna leave it here.
I hope i wasn’t too offensive/dick about it but really this thread kinda triggered me, lol. I’ve sat in the Industrialist and Trader and Hauler and Miner chairs and have played EVE for free for years because of the margins I made and selling at the right locations (so, not Jita. for me anyway). Eventually I simply stopped with EVE because of real life, and simply plexxed the account every now and then with the ISK I had made before. Sadly though, I’ve plexxed it too often and now my isk bank is quite low in comparison(under 2bil), but, I also don’t bother with trading as much as I did before because it became more of a Job than a Game.
Edit; Ofcourse a lot of people will opt for JITA prices because its better for their wallet, not yours.
If you cant make isk buying inputs at Jita sell and producing the output for Jita sell…then mining/harvesting/etc is a loss, or alternatively it’s just less productive than some other product.
Meaning you could mine/harvest something else and earn more.
best industry is in null, selling things that no one else wants to make for big profit percent, because the big boys aren’t competing with you, they are making rorquals or whatever instead
You’re assuming that the Jita Sellprice is a magical price where you start being profitable. Its nonsensical.
“[…] mine/harvest something else and earn more” – has nothing to do with production profitability. I can mine all the Arkonor and Bistot I want but that’ll just drive the price down for the minerals those contain and the price up for the other minerals that I’d still need. So that argument only works for miners that sell directly on the market, not Industry Titans as you put it.
Also, if your arguments are going to be Jita-comparatives then there’s no point in discussing this because its an illusion to think Jita dictates the prices. Jita prices are a result of traders battling to sell their stocks, they are not to be taken as product prices. They are Trade prices. Some of the products are growsely overprices by those Traders, some growsely underpriced. The product price is production cost + wanted-profit-margin. If people/corporations/alliances are selling below your calculated price then all that means is the following:
(and/or list)
A) they’re trying to influence the market
B) they have better and cheaper access the base components/minerals/products
C) You don’t have the setup to beat their price
D) They have stockpiles from previous market fluctuations (buying low, large, waiting for half a year, selling high, large)
Its a multi-conglomerate VS a solo business venture. You’re not going to be able to deliver at the same prices unless you get deals with that multi-conglomerate, or, setup your own.
Have a nice night, its saturday evening, time for EVE-marathons and/or going out.