“meaningful choices” - if you run any serious industry you end up with army of alts running industry… so much for meaningful choice
I love all of the whining in this thread, if you didn’t want a pvp sandbox you shouldn’t have started playing eve.
Eve is a single shard PVP Player Run Sandbox.
Just a tip: don’t engage EL…you will regret it.
I’ll engage and kill it’s simple
Translation: If you want to accomplish solo what other players do as a team you need a lot of alts.
Or you could, you know, make friends?
Lets’s start the ball rolling then:
How much actual PvP combat do you do in a week/month/year? What proportion of your time spent logged on to EVE is spent in PvP combat?
BTW combat means actual fighting: not lurking; travelling/sneaking around looking for a potential fight you can’t lose; running away from the possibility of a fight you might lose; frightening away frigates with big fleets of very large ships; etc.
.
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I should note that this question has demonstrated that most EVE players risk-aversion extends to the forums. Remember this is just about whether EVE should be classified as a PvP game or a PvE game.
A hint about PvP combat percentages: I have a friend who plays an MMO PvP Game two to four times a week, probably averaging 8-10 hours a week. Actual PvP combat percentage is certainly over 75%, possibly as high as 90%.
Anda hint about the others side of the EVE crypto-speech definition of PvP: for anyoine who actually believes it, mining, trading, manufacturing (even missions /lol) count as some weird kind of “PvE-PvP”, So EVE players will definitely have to reconsider their attitude towards WOW PvE realms. WoW players definitely do a lot more fighting.
How much time do you think people in WoW would spend PvPing if all their gear would drop every time they lose a fight?
How often do you think they would just go #yolo and jump into a fight if that would be the case.
The comparisson you are trying to make is skewed against EvE right from the start, because unlike in EvE, dying in those games you are naming is completly meaningless.
Ship losses having an impact in EvE is the reason why people pick their fights more carefully and don´t just jump on everything they see all day long. And of course they will spend a lower percentage of time PvPing than people in other games unless they use plex to replace their losses. While in those other games you just grind your max level gear once and after that can just PvP without having to replace anything.
Welcome to debating with EL…loaded questions, strawman and simple question avoidance. Lies too now and then for good measure.
Still waiting for the bozo to even acknowledge what the “P’s” stand for but doing that will destroy his argument so he normally just runs away…
Not possible.
Unless your friend playing “let’s see how many bullets this thingy can withstand before tearing apart” for sure.
Any meaningful combat consists of 99% of hiding/evading incoming bullets and trying to get better position and about 1% of actual firing at target. And even then there are cases when you fire just to prevent your opponent from getting initiative or improving his disposition.
Actually EvE Online Combat PvP is not much different. It is simply more complex and distributed over time and place.
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That’s your own artificial limitation of what combat is.
Combat scanning, getting cynos and scouts in place to drop, gathering intel, forming fleets and getting to the destination of a fight, scheduling fleets, developing doctrines, scanning ships, hacking citadel timers, etc. - these are all combat activities and PVP is far more than just the guns active part.
If you don’t understand pvp in the game, how can you even hope to discuss it with any sense (because so far, actual knowledge is very thin)?
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Darth
I don’t think you were around much last time this “crypto-speech” discussion came up, so FYI:
- This isn’t about whether EVE is a good or bad game
- Nor is it specifically about the terminology, but the casual misuse of the terminology. If people didn’t so frequently follow “EVE is a PvP game” with obviously false, destructive/exploitative, self-serving claims I would have left it alone.
- I’m not skewing the comparison. I have to select points that can’t be “shouted down” though. This limits my options.
- The EVE rule “don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose” makes comparisons between EVE and “no equipment loss” games interesting, but not precise because (as far as I know) there’s no useful data available. If there was (good data available) I’m not sure it would put EVE in a good light.
- In terms of time, someone earning 100 million ISK + per hour, losing a 20-million ISK ship once every two hours with no recompense (i.e. this doesn’t apply to gank-farmers) is risking six minutes of their time. Note that this is a conservative example: step over to the active “L4 Payout Topic” for a broader perspective
- People here sometimes say they can make a reasonable profit suicide ganking. In such a case they’re (slightly) better off than a WoW player
March
There’s no obvious connection between you post and the one you quote from. There might be something there, but you’ll need to define fighting/not-fighting for me to see it.
BTW my friend doesn’t play WoW.
Scipio
Please scan the post I wrote for Darth Schweinbacke.
I open with an honest but polarized question because I must. In a different kind of forum I would choose something else. OTOH in a different forum the discussion would never occur 
I never said it was.
EvE not being a PvP game is your opinion, based on a false perception of what defines a game as PvP game. Fact is, EvE is a single shard game, where PvP is ALWAYS enabled, not unlike MMOS that have specific PvP servers wich operate close to this principle.
This alone is enough to classify it as a PvP game. But on top of that part the whole world is shaped by player actions and the interaction between players and competetion between the players is the base pillar the game stands on.
And your very thin definition of PvP which you are delibaretly using as a smokescreen, which is “PvP only includes direct Player vs. Player combat” makes no sense.
Yes you are. You are comparing games with completly different base principles.
And this rule exists exactly, because of permanent loss which prevents people to just throw everything they have recklessly into fights without consequence, which naturally leads to more planned out PvP rather than the “LEEEEEEERRRROOOOOOOYYY!” kind of PvP.
I am well aware of the amount of money a player can make, which usually scales with the time you already have been playing the game. And while I could throw around Frigs all day long without it ever making a dent in my wallet that is not the kind of PvP I enjoy. The kind of ships I fly range between 500 mil and 1.5 billion ISK.
And while this is a personal choice of mine that I make to enjoy the gameplay that I actually like, your whole argument of arbitrary numbers which in themselves have no meaning is once again nothing but a smokescreen with 0 value.
And this is only possible to a certain degree. Yes there are a few people who make decent money with ganking. But as per your definition half of the process does not even count as PvP and sometimes it can take hours before you find a valueable target. At least valueable enough to replace a few losses. And as the supply of valueable targets already is very limited it´s very unreasonable to apply this as a method to generate income for PvPing for the general population.
No you are simply comparing apples with oranges and make up senseless stuff, trying to drive through your point.
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Is it still bitching about the definition of words and how they have been changed to be specific to Eve, while changing the definition of words to suit its own purposes?
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I was a solo highsec merc who would fly around without neutral logi sometimes fighting 1v1 or 1 vs 6 depending on the day and not always winning…
I’ve joined PL and I’m in fights just for the fact of fights…
Highsec mercing has been forced into a monopoly… CCP has killed any attempts at a stable highsec…
CCP has limited player market by allowing highsec Monopolies by giant nullsec entities.
Arguments based on a limited experience of game time are truly baseless and have no place in this game…
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I’m not interested in a game vs game comparison as such.
Follow the “bittervet narrative” and there’s an interesting contradiction: once you redefine PvE activities (trading, mining, etc) as “pseudo PvP” than you have to do the same for every other MMO, and suddenly “every” MMO is 100% PvP.
EVE is actually different to most other MMOs, but the eccentric EVE-unique redefinition of “PvP” doesn’t capture that difference at all.
“EVE is a PvP game” certainly can’t be followed by “therefore player group X is right/wrong about” … whatever topic might be under discussion. Because the “PvP” in EVE crypto-speech just means competition within most activities. Just like every MMO with limited resources, starting with UO.
And along the way “the baby is thrown out with the bathwater”. The defining characteristics which are interesting about EVE (including free-fire PvP) are “obscured by the fog”.
PVP is not constrained to just combat. I believe I do more pvp than ppl playing moba games…
No they are not. What makes Eve 100% PvP is that there is nowhere, aside from a few very niche and transient exceptions, where you are safe from the other players. The PvE activities you describe that take place in a shared universe are what make Eve a competitive game. And yes, practically every MMO is competitive on some level. At least any MMO where resources spawn in a shared environment which players have to race for is a competitive game where the actions of one player affect the other.
Arguably Eve has more of this competition than other MMOs, and probably can be said to even designed around it, but all MMOs where players are vying for resources are competitive. What makes it a PvP game is that all of this happens against a background of an open PvP zone. You can collect flowers in a PvE-only zone of other games, where you still are competing against other players for the spawns, but direct PvP is not allowed. In Eve, that is not possible. You can be exploded by another player everywhere. Thus it is a full-on, open-world PvP game, different from those with a space where direct player combat is prohibited, which is usual in most MMOs.
Whether you call these indirect interactions a form of PvP (which it is in the broadest sense), or just ‘competitive PvE’ to differentiate it from direct combat between players, it doesn’t matter. There is a continuum of competition and interaction in all multiplayer games in a shared space and Eve falls much further to the side allowing competition and allowing players to influence the game experience of each other than most games, even if it is nowhere as harsh as most Eve players or observers believe.
Again no. Given Eve has as a core concept that the entire game universe is a PvP zone, so if someone calls for a PvE-only (that is, no direct player combat) zone, it is perfectly appropriate to tell them that their idea is wrong and not compatible with this game. Sure, CCP can change the core concept if they want, but given that they have shown no hint of wanting to do something so against the core design of the game, it is still fine to tell people that there idea for a safe zone has no place in Eve Online given the game is one giant free-for-all arena, and always has been.
This isn’t that complicated an issue. There are no safe spaces in Eve. There likely will never be, if mostly just out of inertia and lack of resources to do that large amount of game design and implementation work to make one. Eve is what it is, and will be until the servers get shut down. People who ask for one should have how the game works explained to them to set their expectations. People who demand this fundamental aspect of the game be thrown out to cater to their personal preferences will probably get a more confrontational response, understandably, as that core concept has brought a lot of people to the game.
Sure, I’ll agree with you that responding with “No! because Eve is a PvP game!” to any suggestion to rework or rebalance things isn’t especially helpful and that mantra doesn’t mean the game cannot be changed. But it does set some basic limits or constraints to what is possible and what is not, and what type of interactions are likely to be included with future game features. I think it perfectly fair to point out to someone that if Eve hasn’t added safe spaces after sixteen years, there is very little chance that this basic fact will change now and CCP will suddenly throw out a core tenet of the game.
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First of all the grouping of all the hisec war deckers into one big group was done due to fear of null sec entities and was totally logical. But do you really think that this entity will last as an united entity, I don’t. I did not expect Marmite to join with PIRAT, but I did expect the war deckers to gang up and it was totally logical and expected by me.
And are you and Scipio being a bit dense by any chance, seriously because people could not defend against PIRAT before in any case, so I have no idea why you think this was something that would change. This was the case before this change and is the case after this change. What have I missed, nothing? To even suggest that I was unware of this is laughable, I was bloody hoping this would happen!!!
The amusing thing is that PIRAT as a group are very risk adverse so when they go and take out a structure they do so in overwhelming force. What this means is that as they have ganged up their reach has become less, in that they concentrate in the key areas and they have sucked up most of the war deckers. In fact this is what I was bloody well hoping for, it is really funny for me that the risk to my operations has reduced due to this. 
I pointed out to CCP that with the change to logi and not make it so allies could rep each other they just handed an easy ride to the major war deckers. Because if the people who were allied could then rep other allies and the defender then something could have developed, but alas it got too complicated for CCP.
Another thing I was hoping for was that some of the big more aggressive nullsec alliances would come in and play with the war deckers now that they had something to lose. and it is very early days for this and there are other things going on like the war in the North. Or should I refer to that as a clean out operation… This was to punish blanket war deckers and will still happen at some point.
What will happen is that some of them like the Goons perhaps will start having a go at them, this will then reduce the pool of targets for their pipe hunting and start to reduce content for them and put pressure on their ability to maintain large numbers. The paint has not even dried on this change and the affects have not yet panned out. You do know that most of the kills by blanket war decs was on null sec alliances, this is why the war HQ is so very important, it enables there to be consequences, if I was a leader of a nullsec alliance I would just go and destroy every single one of PIRAT’s structure when they war decked me leving the war HQ I was war decked from for last.
But what is amusing is how low risk players like the OP (he likes bumping so that explains his hatred of risk) cannot even get a structure into space to do war decs as he is scared of losing it, wow? The whole point is that there is a risk and the reward of that risk is content, which might blow up in your face.
It is panning out exactly as I expected and what I find most amusing of all is all the low risk players crying about it, because they have to risk a structure, sucks to be them.
There are so many people who do not have a clue and you just showed yourself as one of them. I was hoping to bring a large group of people together to jump on PIRAT, but without the ability to rep allies it is not going to happen…, which is why I was never in favour of removing neutral RR. But if you want to think that I did not think that the war deckers would unite, what can I say.
EDIT: This Wardeccers United is likely to burst apart at some point in the future, and why would that happen?
Anyone with a brain has a one man holding corp and just lets the structure die, anyone with a brain is watching PIRAT focus in certain key areas and leaving them to it. Anyone with a brain even gives structures to other players to put up and uses them as he wants. Consolidating all the war deccers into one group was fantastic news to me, and I watched PIRAT going after other war deckers to create this with undisguised glee. Do I have to spell it out any stronger than that, it is great news.
Most war deckers are like the OP or Dum Dum, they are too scared to risk a structure to hunt, so they give up, some of them might even have joined PIRAT, but structure humping is not for them and they will leave the game. This is working out exactly as I expected and hoped for. And over time PIRAT will crumble back to its Russian core. Some might then start doing small group wars that then might end up with a defence and meaningful real combat which is what I was aiming for. Which is why I asked CCP to reconsider the RR thing, but anyway if that means that people do not fight back and just play the already dead do not defend game then it will kill war deckers anyway over time. And the loss of people like te OP or Dum Dum is no loss at all to this game, because if they give up due to the fear of losing a structure, then they do not get Eve…
But of course I don’t know what I am talking about… F
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