If everything goes according to God’s plan there is no reason to create the world. Why would God create it if he can just imagine it?
Of course it might be the exact case that we are the imagination of a being.
Yes, evolution is a tool to cope with changing environment. But there are so called evolutionary steps. When the answer to a situation is specific that the rng needs some time to find it. And when it is found there is a huge change in the population even though there was absolutely no change in the environment.
After all I even doubt that the evolution model can be fit to EVE cause we have no reproduction and stuff. Something like an “adaptation” system would be more suitable.
I really liked when someone said one can only create a new trade hub when it is advantegous for other people too. The thing is that it would definitely be advantegous. Everyone prefers less travel. And minimizing travel time for many people by hauling some stuff to this new trade hub with a freighter is what trading is all about.
I think this hole lack of trading out of Jita can be solved by CCP and by player efforts too.
I think if people in Delve created a trading Citadel and created some kind of “only shoot if not a hauler” policy there could easily be a trading hub. And there are some wealthy corporations in high sec too who can create their own trade hub if they realized the possibilities.
They might soon do as an evolutionary step.
Err…well…not exactly. That is what co-evolution looks at. Not only are the organisms in an ecosystem evolving, but as they evolve they also change the eco-system. There is even some work being done looking at co-evolutionary processes that incorporate “group play” which may yield “free lunches”.
Actually we have new players coming in and old players leaving. And we have imitation as well as mutant strategies popping up. We obviously won’t have sexual selection and the like, but the over all idea that things evolve in EVE is almost surely true. Heck one could even make a case for Lamarckism. Probably total nonsense in the world of evolutionary biology, but in a social setting when one generation acquires/finds a winning strategy (not unlike a mutant gene) they can transmit it to the next generation via communication.
True, but if you are going to Jita and if prices are lower…then since you have to go already might as well, just buy it all there.
There is already a trading hub in Delve, but it caters to Goons.
Organisms do not evolve in their own lifetime.
Specific populations of organisms evolve in the next generation, as a result of attrition without reproduction in the previous generation, and by extension, by a possible beneficial mutation in those that do reproduce, or, in some rare cases, by what the previous generation had learned being imparted onto the next by teaching.
That is why his point on changing population size was eminently relevant, as to EVE.
PCU, ie: the population/genetic diversity in EVE, was almost double in 2012.
We dont reproduce in EVE. You and I dont “spawn” more players. We can create alts, or entice new or old players into the game, but we have no control or influence on how long the latter will survive in the EVE ecology. Alts will inherit our characteristics, but new/returning players will not.
From an evolutionary perspective, half of 2012s population did not have traits which allowed for survival in a changing environment, and died out, by today.
Jita is a cancer on EVE. Even in IRL markets, no one market has so much influence over all others.
There are trade stations all over HS systems, and elsewhere.
Nobody is disputing the existence of other trade stations/systems, only pointing out the predominance of Jita and its deleterious impact on dispersion of trade in EVE.
Even Delve trade, as an entire Sov Region, is a peanut compared to trade in the elephant that is the Jita hub system.
Why do you think Jita is still a big trade hub and will remain one even with big efforts put into the creation of other ones ?
I guess the inertial weight of Jita makes it remain more interesting for people who want to buy. When I need items, even when I am close to amarr I rather go to jita to save a few 100M.
Do you think that having several main hubs which would share most of trade volume would be a good thing ? I mean, as a consumer I rather avoid having to go to several hubs in order to find the most interesting.
Sure they are. Mutations happen all the time. Sexual selection happens all the time. Evolution happens gradually over time in the sense of new specials, but it is constantly going on. And when we shift over to the social realm that evolutionary process can be much faster.
No it isn’t and what you have written does not change that.
No, but we can change strategies, and strategies could be modeled using the replicator equations from evolutionary biology. Imitation is central aspect of biology in that offspring inherit their genes from their parents and thus “imitate” them. The same can be said of strategies people use in economies. So in the social realm the process of evolution can be much faster.
Okay, whatever you say…
Whatever you say. [Hint: you are full of Bravo Sierra here at least on a historical basis.]
Jita became a trade hub for a number of reasons. It used to have good agents, or so I’m told. It also had some good science and research stations as well. Also we can look at the Hotelling model of location. Jita is within close proximity of a number of regions especially now with jump freighters. You can undock in Jita and get to Sinq Laison in 1 jump you can get to Sinq Laison, Black Rise, Lonetrek Metropolis, Geminate, Vale of the Silent, and even Essence. If Jita is a good place for people to shop from 10 regions…you might want to locate there for the same reasons.
Also lots of players start out as Caldari, so they naturally start building up standings with the Caldari factions and that can translate into benefits when you are putting up by and sell orders.
Now, yes CCP designed all of these things, but it is far from clear that CCP did so with the intent of making Jita 4-4 the primary trading hub in the game. Keep in mind that in the early days there were super highways that lead to Yulai…which was the dominant trading hub. Once those were removed, Yulai as a trading hub collapsed and in its place we got Jita, Amarr, and Dodixie and Rens as the largest trade hubs in its place.
As for Jita being a cancer…that is just Salvos trying to be edgy, IMO.
Sorry but genetical evolution does not happen at the scope of a generation, as salvos pointed.
Maybe you meant evolution in a non-genetic way.
I don’t really get why (both) you are talking about that anyhow.
Sorry but I find the discussion more interesting when you don’t try to antagonize each other.
OMFG no please.
LEARNING (or training) is the adaptation of a self as the result of an activity, on a brain(=individual)-level.
Genetic evolution is the result of the expression of the genes in a passive and oblivious way to the individuals, the acquisition of genes is made through several generations.
They have NOTHING to do together.
Actually that was exactly my question : would several hubs be more interesting than having a megahub ?
The process is on going and I am not talking just about biological evolution, but social evolution. But even with the evolution in biology and life forms it is a constant on-going process that takes time for results to be noticeable. As for evolution in a social setting clearly happens at a much faster rate. Look at language did the advent of the word google as a verb take generations? No, it happened inside a single generation of humans. Language clearly evolves and it does so very quickly relatively to biological evolution.
Sure, but even at a genetic level there is a type of imitation.
It would be different…as for more interesting we already have two pretty big hubs, Amarr and Jita. Amarr is a bit more expensive, but if you live in the south cutting down the travel time vs. the savings from going to Jita is a Thing™.
I don’t want to be the OP who acts like a mod but I find demonstrating our knowledge about Darwin a bit useless.
I prefer the “many trade hub utopia” because it has more diversity, more possible carreers.
At the moment hauling stuff bettween regions because of the price difference is mostly just a unique trip, not a hole carreer. It would hopefully make margin tradig not so soulbeating.Possibly everything would be a relevant activity if one finds the right market for it. It would be more relevant where one lives.
Even from the simulation perspective it’s not best to have a single shop in this vast universe.
Plus I find this utopia more interesting which is subjective but I’m sure many agree.
Well…there is considerable interest among some economists that an economy is a complex adaptive system…not unlike what we see with biological evolution.
The economy in EVE is more like the complex adaptive economy than what is found in a standard neoclassical textbook. As such, things like trade hubs are not going to happen because some one wants them too. They’ll happen because of the various interactions of both the in game environment and the players themselves. Jita is not the biggest trade hub because CCP set out to make Jita the biggest trade hub, players did that in response to how CCP set up things like where the agents were placed, which race many players pick when starting a character (Caldari), the location of Jita, etc. Yes, CCP designed all of those things but there is absolutely zero evidence that they had any intent for Jita to be a trade hub, let alone the largest trade hub.
CCP could create a single super hub like they did with Yulai (maybe) by reinstating the “super highways”, but I doubt that CCP could do something to create more and smaller trade hubs. Or if they did chances are everyone would be back here screaming about how CCP ■■■■■■ up everything yet again.
Basically somebody saying, “I want there to be many trade hubs” is like saying, “I want humans to evolve along path x”.
Close. For common stuff on the market, most of the time the sell price is well above the (perfect) production costs, and the buy order a bit below. This usually is combined with a bias towards direct buys from sell orders, hence the buy orders are filled less often (loot, liquidation, cheaper stock, etc.)
Yes, but biological evolution has different parameters. Social evolution is a separate body of science, although they do overlap occasionally. Evolution in economic systems would be even more rapid, and to be quite frank, has arguably very little effect on biological or social evolution, rather being a result of those two in what occurs in the blink of an eye in those.
Nobody disputes that Jita is the biggest trade hub because that was the path of least resistance that led to players, in aggregate, over time, elevating Jita as a trade hub.
But that doesnt change that CCP sets the dimensions/parameters/mechanics that form EVE as a sandbox (or aquarium, which I prefer as more accurate analogy), which inevitably inform player behavior (whether “intended” or not).
A concrete and proven test of that, is that CCP has applied special system rules to Jita that are unique in EVE, after the fact of how players behaved ingame.
Whether Jita, or more competing markets, are “better” for EVE, is difficult to qualify.
What we do know, is that game systems are the foundation upon which player behavior resulted in Jita.
Thus its perfectly valid to ask whether CCP should change those underlying game systems, so as to result in more differentiated markets throughout EVE.
Purely cynically, if CCP made changes that resulted in player behavior that in turn meant CCP could remove Jitas special system rules, that would be an indication of the right direction.
As you have said previously, irrationality in markets is usually a result of some external force dictating artificially the free economy. In this case, Jita, as a system with preferential treatment, fulfills that kind of interference, and that is just the most obvious one. There are many other secondary mechanics that have led to this outcome (such as the LS thresholds inability to engage jumping cargo, the overall “safety” of HS cargo transit/resource sourcing/manufacture, dispersal of resources and EVE geography at large).
TLDR:
You see player behavior as something that occurs despite CCP design.
I see player behavior as something that occurs as inextricable from CCP design.
I dont quite understand how you rationalize your view, since everything that happens in EVE is restricted by CCP design, in my view.
I have looked into this and the price that is asked, the sell price, is based on the manufacturing costs.
In WH or NS the manufacturing costs are less than what they are in HS. So making something in NS costs less and thus can be sold at a much lower price than the same item made in HS. Plus in NS the materials are much more abundant.
The cost of raw materials, like ore, is a cost that the player has to apply and shouldn’t mirror market prices.
The player has to set his/her own price, the price that the player would be happy with.
For example. If Tritanium has a price on the market of, say, 4.6, then the cost of the materials used in making an item would reflect this. If the price, over time, goes up to 8.4, then the sell price would reflect this.
But it doesn’t matter what the market price for raw material is, it is the price that the maker is happy with. If anyone wants top isk, then the materials and don’t make anything.
A ship full of Veldspar costs the player something like 5,000 isk. after processing. That costs are the min costs the player needs to cover costs. Anything over that is profit. So do the sums people.
Another reason that sell prices are lower than manufacturing prices is competition. If a player/corp, wants less competition then they will sell items for much less than manufacturing costs. Doing this then reduces the incentive for others to make such items.
Yeah, but its also time/cost to bring it to HS markets (basically, Jita.).
Overall, afaik, aside from Delve atm, there is quite little manufacture in NS.
The general NS based entity scheme, is to source materials from NS, ship them to associated zero tax HS manufacture points for processing, sell them in Jita, and ship back whatever orders the NS entity asks of that hauler.
Thats one of the results (or causes) of Jita, at large.
It de-incentivizes NS markets, and local NS markets force demands as to their needs.
They will kick out anyone trying to upset that.
NS traders operate by moving material to and from NS “hubs”, by contract, rather than trading locally in NS. They dont “trade” themselves in commodities, they trade in transporting those goods, to and from.
This is a natural result of NS markets being owned/dictated by their Sov owner, and largely being unable to trade with their NS neighbors due to antagonistic interests.
Ie: If you try to scalp in an NS market, the NS owner will get rid of you. Aside from that, you have very little chance of moving your goods to another NS market without being blue to both.
NS “trade”, is very similar to the classical sense of trade in the colonial era.
Individual “nations” (ie: NS entities) form a chartered Trade Company of ships with capable/reliable captains and support fleets, that deliver their local goods to another part of the world where they are desirable, and return filled with the contracted goods they desire from that destination.
These “traders” do very little trading, except insofar as bringing their contracted goods to a foreign market, and filling their ship with consigned contracts there for the return trip.
These traders deal in delivery contracts, not their own owned commodities (albeit the captain will haul/trade some of his own possibly, for some extra cash off the trip).
Unfortunately, in EVE, this all boils down to Jita/Forge.
NS rarely, if ever, trades with other NS.
Not only are they unwelcome due to security, but nobody wants to pump isk/materials into their NS neighbor. They might pick-up some buy contracts on the way to and from Jita outside NS, but for competitive sale price, its rarely possible to beat Jita.
TLDR:
NS trading is almost nothing like HS trading.
NS markets are controlled and exclusive.
NS does not trade with other NS.
NS “trade” is largely shipping contracts to and from HS (Jita).
The remainder of NS “trade” is by purchase of the NS holder of local resources/production for their own ends, either by carrot or whip.
This is an important point, and one people are often completely oblivious to. The established trade hubs allow players to circumvent political barriers by trading via a neutral third-party proxy (even if said proxy is merely the facility itself, and its associated NPC-run services and overheads - broker, tax.)
NS does have trade hubs, per entity, but they operate more as “company store” interm of the NS holders interests, and/or a trading house for creating shipment contracts into and out of that NS entity, for members of that NS entity.
NS trade, in NS hubs, as owned by that entity, are almost entirely homogeneous and controlled.
They dont “trade” in the colloquial sense. Certainly not with other NS.
They function as company store for the needs of the NS entity, and as a point for creating shipment contracts in and out of that NS space (invariably, to/from Jita).
Its extremely difficult to operate as an independent trader in NS.
There are exceptions, but inter-NS trade is almost non-existent.
Thus, as you observe, NS entities trade with each other indirectly through Jita/Forge (or, if proximal, in some rare cases through a 3rd party structure close to both).
I cannot overstate this enough.
In EVE, all trade lanes, and almost all goods, invariably pass through Jita.
It is the central hub to which all roads lead into, and out of no matter how distant the origin of the commodity nor the distance it has to be shipped out to again.
It looks very much the same though. Adopting strategies that are more successful from those around you is not unlike the spread of successful genes.
I am not arguing that one influences the other, but that they are both part of a larger area of study, complex adaptive systems.
You are basically agreeing with me.
Here is a thought experiment, suppose that Jita was simply deleted from the game. All characters and the items they owned in Jita were simply moved to random locations in HS space, and not in HS pockets surrounded by LS. What would happen? Thousands of tiny trade hubs? No. Players would again look for a system in the North that again fit the bill like Jita. Maybe it wouldn’t be as good and therefore not as big, maybe Amarr would take over as the largest trade hub, but this assumption that CCP can design things with an ex ante outcome is not really possible, IMO, without doing something incredibly drastic that would leave many players upset.
See you cannot even describe what CCP would need to do to create lots of little trade hubs. What can CCP do, in game to keep another central trading hub in the north of HS from forming? Everybody says, “Oh we should get rid of Jita!” But I have yet to see a solid argument for how to do that. My contention is it would be like punching water. It would have an immediate effect, but nothing lasting.
Test of what? This is not a test of CCP’s intent, it is proof of CCP reacting to the game environment themselves. You make it out that CCP can do whatever they want, and in a sense they can, but this is actually proof that CCP reacts to the in game environment just like we do.
Yes, because putting the cart before the horse is always a good idea. You have not even figured out how to go about changing things in game so that we get 100 or 1,000 trade hubs…heck let alone 10.
I have not said that markets are irrational, quite the contrary markets follow a logic. Something that follows a logic is not really irrational. I have noted that people can be rationally irrational, but again going from the micro to the macro in a complex adaptive system is not straightforward. That is a group of rationally irrational players could produce “rational” aggregate outcomes (at least to the extent that something like that can be said to be rational ).
Again, Jita gets preferential treatment not because of irrationality, but CCP responding to the game environment much like how players respond.
These are things that are the result of players behaviors just as much as the game environment. Players do not like risk without commensurate reward. As such, players will generally seek to reduce that risk. An alliance setting up a JF route using citadels would be one solution. A player alliance setting up an internal “OOC hauling alt list” is another, especially if they are buddies with a well known group that ganks freighters (and this kind of thing…these kinds of relationships…totally missing from neoclassical economics, but probably significant none-the-less).
People are still very confused about risk in game. Risk is largely a product of players actions more so than the environment.
No, I see the whole system as a complex adaptive system with feedback loops where CCP does things, and as players react it in turn influences how CCP acts. All of CCPs nerfs…CCP responding to players. To assume CCP is above the system and separate simply does not match up with the facts.
Well, I see this as completely and fundamentally wrong. It is quite clear that CCP responds to how players behave just as players respond to how CCP behaves.
Because CCP responds to how the players behave. When players shifted over to drone assist and boot carriers as a dominant form of game play…CCP responded to that. CCP reacted to what the players were doing. Same thing with nano ships, same thing with tracking titans, same thing with just about every other nerf to something players were doing.
