Why take away Margin Trading?

Margin Trading is in every aspect of financial markets outside of the game. Taking it out of Eve Online, reduces players ability to act as a larger competitor. This will only help the richer players who have the capital to withstand such a change, as they will loose competition.

We really need an in-game banking and loan system interface. Or even a corporate stock trading system.

Furthermore if your trying to avoid margin trading scams, if an order fails due to the buyers account, why not have the sale fail, cancel on the buyers side, and cancel the margin order. That way the order doesn’t go through at a higher/lower price.

That’s what happens now. Problem is the seller previously bought ‘low-priced’ items off the market, likely from the scammer, and is now stuck with these items, while the scammer has the ISK from the previous sales.

If CCP is that worried about it (and I wonder if they actually are) then you move to a clearinghouse model. The listed sale goes through and the clearinghouse (CCP) goes after the buyer with a ‘margin call’. The duped party gets the profit - no scam - and the scammer has CCP on their butt.

That’s literally how the margin scam works.
Your proposal is exactly how it works.

You set up a buy order for something at 5b isk. You sell the item to an unsuspecting victim for 3b. The victim buys it, thinking he can quickly flip it to the buy order and make a nice profit. Only problemis when he goes to try and sell it,the buy order fails. Now he’s out the 3b originally spent to buy the item and that 5b buy order has disappeared.

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Have the order completely fail, not trade occurring at all, and the non-complaint limit order removed (like currently). You could even implement a penalty system, where each failed limit order banned a players ability to participate in a limit order for a duration of time. Scaling with incursions.

That’s EXACTLY how it already works right now.
The margin scam has already taken place by the time the victim approaches the fake buy order.

Please learn what you are talking about before trying to suggest changes to it.

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What you are missing is that the margin scam involves two transactions. Once the second one fails, you cannot go back on the first one.

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Basically, create new account to quadruple your money.

True, alt accounts make margin scamming more difficult to police’. But by definition the account setting up the bogus buy order has to have the Margin Trading skill and thus be Omega. Since cash or PLEX had to be spent on the account to go Omega, the scammer had to invest at least ~1.6B to pull it off, making the scam a lot riskier. Also, the sheep you have to fleece to make those kind of profits are not likely to fall for the scam anyway.

Right now, CCP does not police this at all. The scammer is free to do it over and over and over… you get the point.

If CCP starts locking up Omega accounts then I would suspect this scam to fall even further into obscurity.

But for CCP to ‘get rid of’ margin trading to specifically stop this scam shows they either lack understanding of markets, are lazy, intentionally want to cool the markets, or some combination.

I think you have to dumb it down even more.

John drives to the store. On the way into the store, he sees a sign on the road saying, “Buying Apples For $5 dollars!”

John goes into the store and sees that apples are selling for $1 dollar. He thinks to himself, “Hey, I can buy this for $1 dollar and sell it to the guy on the road for $5 dollars!”

So, John buys the apple and then gets in his car. When he goes back to the guy on the road, he is gone and poor little John is stuck with the apple.

Thus, how is CCP going to cancel the order from the guy in the store if the guy on the road has nothing to do with the guy in the store (e.g.: two separate transactions and two separate people supposedly)? :smiley:

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You don’t understand. With your proposal you just scam yourself. Your alt is a scammer who places buy order for (your wallet balance x4) ISK, and you are the seller who gets compensation from CCP.

You are correct this will hurt low capital trade players much more than those who have high capital compared to their trade.

It however will stop some legal scumbag market activity which I’ve been a part of for the last 2 years. A minority of players are engaged with this and the ISK income goes from good to absurd.

I did offset with a 100bn donation to plex 4 good however :slight_smile:

I don’t see how it will effect botting in the slightest, a bot will always trend to its set bottom line & will continue to do so. The bottom line will rise with each price change, however.

CCP claim this will allow smart priced players into the market but the margin between the bots will be so narrow, the change will be irrelevant for items like ship mods. The change will effect botting on high volume, high price and wide margin markets such as PLEX, but only somewhat. Bots will not be effected and once the bots have clenched the new narrow margin, they’ll drive most players out.

The change to pos broker fee is misguided, ccp should not allow pos owners to set different broker rates, each pos should have a fixed rate set by the owner for all.

Tl;Dr,

The changes will not effect botting. The change will narrow profit margins and keep them low and narrow. Increasing the profit margin is a risk, most eve players are risk averse.

Oh I see, I was thinking of the way the margin scam is pulled off currently.

You’re still putting an Omega account (the buyer) at risk, but I see how you could quickly make more than 1.6B.

CCP would then have to also institute a ‘fat finger’ policy and disallow trades X% away from current (or recent past) market. That wouldn’t be a bad change in its own right, but it’s now getting even more complicated.

I just don’t think in a devious enough fashion, obviously.

I still think the margin trading ban is going to crush (further) regional markets, thus solving a very minor problem, margin scams, by creating a much larger one, only one market to reasonably transact in.

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So I am all on board with working to avoid the scamming of new players. Any reason to keep other players around longer will benefit us all. I do agree that this will reduce the overall limit orders on the market, for which I will be grateful, I pulled back from mineral and ore trading due to this, and the .01 isk modification, but it seems like they are fixing that too. I make enough that I will not be hurt by this change, in my opinion it will reduce the overall number of people doing it and create a barrier of entry for new players.

I loved margin trading when I got sick of dying in space :frowning:

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