X47 Fight is NOT OK

Communications Center General Discussion
61

So people just have different arms of the same alliance, this bypasses your limit and results in the same issue

There is NO solution like this that the playerbase won’t eagerly game in order to have an advantage

Limits don’t work unless they are a hard limit and then it just becomes a race to the limit with alts

The server doesn’t render animations or explosions/particle effects (with the exception of AoE weapons which it will have to model in some way) all of that is clientside

Even with the particles turned off the calculations still have to be done and its the massive number of calculations which cause server load and by extension tidi

Doesn’t really work, computing performance doesn’t scale infinitely and you will still saturate a nodes resources with enough people, even the highest end CPU that exists still has limits

Because of latency it does, distribution is the solution on paper, however, in practice, not really as easy as it sounds, especially when it comes to huge numbers of ships on a single grid, there is a required “order of operations” in any battle and so many calculations rely on the ones that come before them

Ship A shoots ship B, so the server has to check if ship A has a lock, has ammo, is in range and check if its moving and work out where its moving to, it has to calculate ship B’s current health, its resist profiles, work out where it is in space, where its going in space, if its being positively or negatively affected by external factors, then it has to take the shot, run the damage calculation numbers, decide if ship B is still alive, adjust its values

The node then has to do this for every ship on the grid that has even any marginal impact on each other ship/drone/missile on the grid, because things later down the chain require information from things up the chain if you add additional delays and latency you don’t actually solve the problem you actually just make it worse because you potentially end up in a situation where you are waiting for information to come back from another server that might not ever show up

3 Likes
62

Please don’t do away with small gang PVP, i’m learning PVP and the large scale battles are no way to learn other than “target x y z” shoot.

Thank you.

64

Even better. Have every nullsec block nominate a champion and they can 1v1 at the sun . Whoever wins , wins the war . Problem solved, you don’t even need a server upgrade, you can run this on the 2005 servers. Then CCP can auction the modern ones and refund the players afterwards.

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65

I had almost forgotten about this gem. This is video wonderfully depicts the disconnect between CCP and reality. :joy:

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66

I’m fairly sure Jade Dynasty had more than thousand players in sunstream’s town center on their european server at any point of time between 2010 and 2015 other then maybe in the 15 minutes of aftermath the servers had less players after downtimes.

Eve is rather the only game that canNOT handle a given playcount and does not have any mechanism to prevent the playercount from happening. Other games have diagnostics indicating you can’t enter a map or warning of impacted performance, while eve has tidi and bugs that will only occur when server performance is insufficient (race conditions).

Eve is also the only game in the world openly encouraging concurrent multiple account usage, thereby magnifying the performance issues the game has.

67

A fact that no one can deny.

68

You expecting a hyper trailer to depict actual gameplay for EVE? please tell me you’re trolling :stuck_out_tongue:

69

I’ll always troll you because you are so easily triggered. :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

But no, I do not expect a trailer to depict real gameplay. But CCP expects it and CCP nurtures wrong expectations with their boastful claims.

70

if anyone has to explain to you what the difference is between a town square harboring a thousand players and a combat grid where 6000 ships, x times 6000 weapons, x times 6000 pieces of ammo, x times 6000 drones and fighters, countless bubbles, x times 6000 modules, trajectories, coordinates, effect magnitudes, outcomes, etc that need calculating on the fly, then maybe the magnitude of the problem and the meaninglessness of your comparison just went past you at warp speed.

I’m glad you at least follow the rules on how and why to blame CCP, especially rules #1, 5 and 9.

3 Likes
71

I’m sure I’ve seen numbers like that in RuneScape too, a bit of a meaningless comparison though.

Were those thousand players each interacting with and affecting dozens of others on that town center, or was their only meaningful value for the server their current location and possibly movement for some?

There’s a difference between thousand objects each with a location versus 6 thousand objects all interacting with each other.

2 Likes
72

Better:

73

Who remembers Aether wars? This was the solution and they pissed that away.
I’m no developer but they just did a tech blog about their on prem server farm.

The answer is
a> Migrate workloads to the public cloud and get out of the plumbing work.

74

Total s-show.

75

More latency. Well done on admitting you don’t know what you’re talking about.

77

image

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78

which might seem fast, until it’s tidi-ed hard enough

JD, as well as any MMORPG had events that would spawn monsters all over the marketplace and lay havoc there numerous times in it’s life, but those events would not cause significant lag. AoE damage is more commonplace in most MMORPG then it is in eve. Auras are very commonplace too, a concept not implemented in eve (command bursts are AOE buffs, not auras, as the buff stays in game if the effectbearer moves out of cast range or the caster dies), drones and fighters are the space version of pets that auto-aggress, trajectories are hardly computation expensive and can easily be swapped for hit-zone evaluation that isn’t done by eve, modules are a widespread concept, they’re just called “items” instead, “coordinates and outcomes” is covered by “players in space”, while pieces of ammo is part of the weapons, and the numbers don’t multiply either, with anything other then slot counts for worst case scenarios, which would be battleship fleet encounters.

i.e.

  • 6000 ships
  • either of
    • 6000x8 = 48k turrets
    • 6000x8x5 = 240k missiles (“unrealistic” min-maxing for flight time and fire rate, a raven can put up to 5 cruises into concurrent flight)
  • 6000x5 = 30k drones
  • 6000x18 = 108k “things” (potentially active module slots) that need to be re-evaluated

Most likely, the smallest of those numbers is the one causing most computing effort though: the ships in space. Eve has some weird issues with collision detection anyways, has no visible effect of intersection optimization other than the static “grid”, and assuming it would not have any real-time or eve-ish “tick” pseudo-realtime optimization, 6000 ships on the same “grid” will each have to be collision detected with any other 5999 ships. So the number of potential collisions to be evaluated is not 6000 but 6000x6000 = 3.6 million, dwarfing any other of the aforementioned numbers, which don’t scale because ship modules, missiles and drones affect only well-known targets rather then potentially everyone, with very few exceptions like command bursts or smartbombs which evaluated only once per cycle rather then every “tick”, and cause collision detections, too.

It’s hardly impossible to introduce real-time adapting octrees or other general-purpose game-map subdivision technology that results in collision detection completing orders of magnitudes faster by filtering the agents that are candidates for collisions.

Arguably, the marketplace is mostly afk, of the thousands of players there’s actually only a few hundreds killing the creeps during the monsters-spawn-in-town-events, and all the others are just getting massacred by NPCs in a highly predictable manner, just to respawn there and get killed again… but how many of those 6000 players on the X47 grid were actually interacting with the game, rather then providing the game with just as much input as an NPC rat would do, because they were alts that were alt-tabbed out?

Noone other then maybe CCP knows the exact alt-ratio and most likely not even CCP knows it, but in large null fleet battles, it’s pretty safe to assume a “vast majority” of participants being alts, and most alts being used as F1 mules.

79

by comparison, an other popular type of pvp (with far more adherents than EvE has)

That would suggest that the technological challenges are very real when it comes to pvp, especially in a single universe (“shard”).

Let’s face it, neither you nor I know what kind of data, computing and transfer volumes a battle like M2 or X74 generates per time unit, nor how it compares to “players fighting npc’s in a market square” in a far less sophisticated game. By contrast, I’m confident that CCP tries (and given their setting records) also succeeds in providing the best possible service under the given conditions. If that is not an enjoyable game experience, that is unfortunate, but it’s still the best on offer on this planet.

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80

There have been discussions and illustrations of this, both by CCP and well-informed outsiders.

Suffice to say that yes, there is metric buttloads of data that has to go back and forth and be checked against other metric craptons of data on the server. To their credit, CCP probably does have a pretty amazing system of mass-PvP running on some pretty incredible hardware.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, that no matter how amazing CCP’s system is, EVE has enough players with enough multi-alts that they can overwhelm it.

So we either deal with CCP advertising EVE as a provider of “single-shard, massive epic space battles”… and then have everyone ridicule CCP with the addendum “where every ‘epic space battle’ devolves into a ridiculous slow-motion TiDi snoozefest that’s less entertaining than a double root-canal, culminating in a server crash which vomits out a set of random endpoints”.

Or… CCP finds a way to actually deliver what they say they do, by creating a method of limiting space battles to something the servers can reasonably handle.

Setting a world record is all well and good, until you discover the real record you set is “most pissed-off players ever to emerge from a single battle”.

81

There’s no point in having a discussion with some people. They will always cry, always be the victim, always blame others, always twist facts, always be lazy, always demand stuff others should do to accommodate them and always be miserable & insufferable people.

They’re energy drains.

82

You never heard of aether wars nor do you understand cloud computing .