Yes, still the cultural starting line. The only thing the Amarr can claim is that their culture got itself into interstellar space a bit ahead of others’. Every culture is built on the foundations of earlier cultures. Unless you want to argue that the Amarr and everyone else literally had to reinvent the concept of language because they lost it.
Historically, only at gunpoint.
And the Minmatar fail to learn even at gunpoint. Probably why I still have to shoot so many.
Oh we learned. We showed you what we learned a few times after that too. We’ve in fact become rather proficient at this point. I wonder how many times we’ll have to kick your teeth in before that smugness fades and that fear behind your masks come to the fore?
I dunno, we seem to have learned to kill Amarr.
… yeah … got some questions about that claim, Arrendis. Dark ages aren’t trivial little things everybody just brushes off.
I think we might be defining “civilization” a little differently.
Language is hard.
Somehow your words ring empty. Empty has the Ragnarok’s hull over Mekhios.
You do realize you’re talking to people who’ve probably seen more dead Avatars and other titans than most on these particular boards, yeah? I think your sense of scale has atrophied a bit, Aldieboo.
And your sense of what is important has atrophied.
That could have had a sting to it, if it had come from someone that had graduated from the Pendulum Pretense. Although I suppose until the powers that be loosens the leash around your neck, pretending it matters is the only recourse if that’s all you have the courage for.
Nor are Dark Ages periods where all culture is lost and humanity descends into bleak, brutal, anarchic savagery. Languages may change during them, but belief structures, stories, and culture come through with no more or less development on a cultural level than there would have been if the written records and technological advancements hadn’t been slowed or even regressed a bit.
This idea that a ‘dark age’ means ‘oh noes, everyone forgot everything’ is just… insane. A powerful empire collapses. Everyone who lives a thousand years later says ‘yup, that was a dark age’. The people living then weren’t running around screaming about ‘dark ages’ or ‘the end of our culture’. It’s not like they said ‘well, little Bobby, I was going to tell you the story of Flegmastein the Elder, but the capital got invaded and there’s no central authority now, so I’m not going to’.
In times of hardship and uncertainty, people burrow deeper into their culture and their traditions. They cling to that sense of identity and surety of ‘the old ways’, just like Aldrith’s doing now.
So, Arrendis? Just a thought that crossed my mind …
Lord Consort Newelle is a little like Miz in that he admires people who have high ideals and the courage of their convictions, so, he prefers Matari partisans he has to fight to Caldari mercenaries at his side. Miz, likewise, seems to like people who are, by her lights, honest and principled adversaries.
I don’t consider myself dishonest or even (these days) all that unprincipled, but I’m not about to go trying to smash anybody’s civilization, either. … in the end, what I really want is a life I can feel glad to have lived when I disappear from this world.
If I’m not going to come over to your side (cause I’m not), it seems like Miz would rather I be more like the Lord Consort: proper, straightforward war banter.
To me it seems like Miz just wants me to make things easy for her. Simple. Clear. “Honest,” for very simplistic values of honesty. And, I won’t, because I don’t believe her anymore than I believe you when you say this is a binary thing. So she kind of does it for me by categorizing me as the lowest of the low so I’m safe to ignore.
Would you, also, rather I played that kind of part? Slotted myself neatly into a role as your enemy?
I won’t, regardless. But I’m curious what you think constitutes being a principled person in this situation.
Actually arguing that the Reclaiming needn’t be done through war, conquest and enslavement is still a pretty radically new idea to many in the Empire. I wouldn’t say I’m trying to entrench those ‘old ways’.
What I’d prefer, Aria, is that if you’re going to claim principles and virtues, you adhere to them, and not huddle in the pillow-fort, being virtuous inside its walls, but utterly absent and inconsistent beyond them.
And failing that… I mean, if you can’t at least be consistent beyond the tiny little ‘nobody cares about inside this group’? Then understand that nobody cares about the opinions or positions of people whose opinions and positions will never, by their own choice, matter… and maybe keep them to yourself.
It’s a bit harsh, I know, but… well, you asked.
I didn’t say you were entrenching them. I said you’re clinging to that sense of identity and surety—in this case, the surety of the superiority of the Amarr and their goals, if not their methods. But then, as long as you defend the continuance of slavery, and don’t even speak out against the continued expansion of slavery through the Imperial Navy’s ongoing raids… yeah, you’re pretty much encouraging and supporting Reclaiming by the sword.
So any claim that you really believe it was a failure, or that you think it shouldn’t be done… it comes across as dishonest. Maybe it’s you you’re trying to convince, I don’t know, but… really, doesn’t look from here like you’re doing anything to convince the Empire to learn any lesson other than ‘lie and say we’re not doing it!’
Honestly, I don’t really have any kind of desire for you to do … much of anything, really. You make arguments, you often bring up me or others while trying to tell us what we’re doing or thinking (because of course we can’t possibly mean just what we say), so I respond. I question your viewpoints. I question your stances. The choices you make. Not in order to achieve much of anything, or get you to actually do anything or say anything in particular. It’s simply because you are there. You are something abhorrent and hideous to me, for a number of reasons I’ve laid out over a long period of time.
You don’t have to make anything easier or harder. My stances and viewpoints are not dependent on yours, or anyone else’s. I have absolutely no need for you to slot yourself anywhere, enemy or otherwise. It’s frankly not your call who is and who is not my enemy. That is entirely up to me, no different than whether or not I’m your enemy is entirely up to you. Aggressor or hostile are certainly words that can have more… universal definitions, but not ‘enemy’.
There is no hidden depths to it, nor any real relevance to it either. You sit in highsec, doing nothing of relevance as far as my people or myself are concerned and you’re an enemy entirely in theory over ideology, unlike people like Aldieboo who actually undocks and fights for what he stands for.
Perhaps if I summarize it this way it’ll make a bit more sense: If it’s just on these boards and certain comms channels, it’s at best an idle distraction. At worst, it’s staving off near-fatal bouts of boredom. None of these diatribes of ours matter, and I dearly hope you don’t think they should.
Vesper, mayhaps it is not best to argue against one who is so hard-headed as Mizhara and hard-hearted as Arrendis. There is a certain inflexibility in their ideas on this subject that really does not lend well to the sort of discussion you are trying to tease from them.
In their minds, Amarr must die so long as a single Minmatar is enslaved. The calculus is very simple and there are no variables to replace. Slavery exists? Destroy those who practice it. There is no room for doubt for them.
Thankfully, more reasonable Minmatar do exist within the Republic. Their voices have been drowned out by the belligerent ones for now, but they yet exist and I hold out hope they will prevail in the end.
The Empire contains similar people, as I know full well, who would like nothing more than to unleash fire and brimstone upon the Minmatar once again and repay their rebellion tenfold. I feel differently, but we still act according to our own and stand ready to follow Her Majesty Catiz I down whatever path she dictates, despite our own opinions. Being Lord Consort to the Champion of House Sarum does prevent me from being quite as vocal than if I had been adopted into House Kor-Azor, for example, but I still work towards my ideals despite what any blind detractor might say.
We both are bound to this Empire in our own ways, through our own relations and loyalties. Best to make good where we are instead of trying to convince those who have no power to change the Empire of points they are completely unwilling to grasp.
I did. And you answered, so, thank you for that.
… it does hurt … but … yeah. I did ask.
Understood, my lord. I guess … I think of Arrendis as a friend. And she seems to want to understand, but … I guess … maybe not.
Thank you for your advice.
… all right. Time to go.
If The Minmatar want to take the Amarr empire down they must support revolutionary movements for example the amarr republican movement simply get in contact with these revolutionary movements and you can work in the the empire from within .
Note the Republican movement as many supported by the commoners against the holders
Aw, don’t let it get you down, Vesper. I’ve come to appreciate your viewpoints as they have become less of a threat to me and mine. Actually, it’s funny; many of their complaints about you are the same ones I had when you joined that mercenary band. You proved me wrong and came back from that potential pit to oblivion, but you still are fundamentally the same person as back then.
Moral relativism and open-mindedness are excellent for forming a viewpoint, but your worst enemy when trying to decide upon a course of action. You are engaging in debate as someone who is yet forming their world, but debating with people who have already formed theirs. This puts you at a considerable disadvantage. You are water trying to move rocks, which, while water may do so eventually, it takes a considerable amount of time and the correct circumstances. Moreover, you are far more likely to simply nudge slightly the rock than to sweep it away to a new field of view. This is why sometimes it takes throwing another rock, or becoming a rock yourself, to move such people. Oft against their will.
War is our trade. In my case, I hadn’t intended it to be, but finding my place within the capsuleer order, and later within House Sarum itself, has made it abundantly clear that this has been my fate for a long while, and may be a long while still. As I do so, I try my best to adhere to a code of ethics that will protect and preserve as much as is within my power. Friend, family and faith come first, but I still consider those beyond as I may. That is really all that is fair to ask of me, or of anyone, really.
In your case you simply found yourself in the precarious position of having the power to kill but no rhyme or reason to use it. I am glad that you are still taking the time to form them, and that for the most part you are doing well. I disagree with Mizhara’s and Arrendis’s assessments of you; if you were in the same position in the Republic I would not judge you as harshly as they are. Keep your wits about you, recognize what you value and how best to serve it with the power you have. That is the beginning of bearing responsibility.
You say this as you suit up for another day of attacking those who only know judgement and punishment. Don’t take that as blame or what not, just another illustration of how few seem to value that idea. Your not alone fighting, and those are some of the reasons the opposition still exists.