A plea for new industrialists - Mission Rewards Change

Industry Gameplay Center Science & Industry
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Rewards from the New Player Experience, and Career Agents should be specially marked and not allowed to be sold on the market, or through contracts. This goes for any module, ship, or other reward gained. Treat these items like civilian items. Or better yet, make special versions of ships “Civilian Venture”, for example. Could have worse stats across the board.

This would be a minor change, and may take a long time to really take effect.

I’d say the items could still be reprocessed, and the minerals sold.

The goal would be to bring back value to ships and items that are commonly gained and sold at ridiculously low prices at the starting areas. Specifically, ventures, T1 industrials, and T1 frigates come to mind. For new players wanting to get into industry this just adds another layer of difficulty, when the majority of their accessible items to produce are selling in markets for 40% of the cost to build it or less.

Please feel free to share thoughts below. Just a quick idea I had after reading another forum post about someone having a hard time finding anything to build - they mentioned lower tier T1 ships being impossible to sell for a profit.

I understand of course, that the market has many variables and this is not the only thing keeping prices low on these items.

Thanks,
Deca Skyward.

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A few ventures and a destroyer per char is not gonna break the economy. We don’t need soulbound items.

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Instead of hand holding, band aid fix for issue that don’t exist. Teach them why stuff in starter system is cheap and why it’s bad idea to produce there.

If you want to get people into industry, teach them very basic principals of eve and it’s economy. Instead of creating some sort of market buble that will solve nothing.

I quickly put most common t1 frigs and destroyers to industry calculator. almost everything has substantial profit margin when produced in T2 rigged structure in null.

Bottom line is: profitable industry is by far one of hardest activity to get into. You need massive isk investment on top of usual market shenanigans. What is most important to understand is that industry don’t generate isk. All income comes from trading. Hence why any new player interested in industry should learn in’s and out’s of market.

Again, artificially affecting player driven market just to create buble for new players is very stupid idea. It not only will be abused to hell but it’s against very core concepts of eve.

TL;DR Git gud and educate yourself. There is plenty of profitable items to make. Even as alpha. Probably not enough to make bank or plex account. But enough to start snowballing something bigger by new player. More creative you gonna get. More you gonna make. Trade hubs or npe systems definitely aren’t a place to do it

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Then purchase those items and reprocess. I do it when people sell their items below 55% of the mats cost.

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Build a crap ton of Ventures and put them up for sale in Paragon stations for players to trade in for EverMarks. Profit…

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Better yet - just allow new players to “unlock” new ship classes in the NPE. If they happen to lose the ship in combat, they could spawn a new one as-needed, just as easily as clicking “board my corvette”.

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I believe the Parangon missions are partly to solve this issue: EM marks against T1 frigates. This creates more demand for T1 frigates.

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I want to be clear, this isn’t for me. It’s for newer players. I do fine in industry.

The point here, is that a lot of items a new player first encounters for manufacturing have horrible returns, and it is an artificial wall created by free items given out - when the the majority of the items/economy are supposed to be player made/sourced.

And of course T1 small ships will have great margins in T2 rigged null structures. I don’t see how that really matters here.

Food for thought.

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Not a bad idea. Shitty combat, miner, and hauler that you can spawn at stations and reprocess for 1 trit.

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This is what I’d like to see go away.

I don’t like the idea of any item being flooded into the market, ruining any chance of real economy for that item.

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Then teach them how to “do fine”. Problem solved.

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Just flood the market with NPC buy orders so that novice industrialists are assured of a profit. Isn’t that what the new evermark agents are for?

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I forgot everyone in EVE is so salty lol.

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the new players are moving on from the career agents , and hauling a few free ships is not worth the effort , so many get sold to the low buy orders .
any aspiring industrial player should quickly realize that’s no place to build and sell those same ships .
even without the agent reward ships , trying to build and sell them pits a new player against skilled and experienced producers with greater efficiency , supply chain , and lower costs .
that’s a lesson best learned early , instead of artificially propping up players , let them learn to research and analyze the market and develop profit making strategy.

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It’s not salt. If you figured out a way to guarantee a profit for newbies, then, well, non-newbies would also abuse it. The market doesn’t say “you’re a human on a newbie alt, you don’t get guaranteed profit.” It’s just there for nullbloc blobs to equally reap for lazy income.

Furthermore, you’re guaranteeing actual newbies to make easy income somehow. Why bother with the real market at all if it takes a completely different level of effort and skills? They will also complain how their padded-wall intro doesn’t match the “real” economy. And instead of nerfing the guaranteed income, you know what they’ll ask for? That’s right, nerfing the real economy to give them even more expanded guaranteed profit. They’ll even argue the economy is never free to begin with and it’s always been this way.

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Instead what CCP has decided that since a few of the Bigger organizations are so successful they raise the price of admission to nose bleed levels. This ensures that the independent industrialist Has to join the big blue doughnut in order to play. Which makes the big alliances bigger and more successful. Meanwhile The Newb and independent is unable to afford the price of admission driving them to the big blue doughnut in the sky. All the while CCP sits there wondering why nothing they do prevents the “over inflation” of their game and failure to improve “newb’s experience” and wondering why bitter old vets have unsubbed and quit playing. “It’s a negative feedback loop” pick a point and stop jacking up the price of admission. CCP needs to figure out that Retention of their player base is every bit as important as catching newbs and less expensive. they lost 10 accounts for their capital construction changes when I won eve and quit the game.

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determining outcomes never works well in games or Life. EVER

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While T2 or faction rigged structures can provide for great income, that income will hardly be made with T1 frigates. A Sotiyo in null has the same 1% mineral saving as its highsec counterpart has, while a T2 Small Ship Manufacturing Efficiency Rig provides for 2.4% ME in high, but 5% in null.

When it comes down to taxes, those are based on the industrial index, which is below 2% for most “backwater highsecs” and also is below 2% for most backwater nulls, while the industrial hubs, which are where the T2 large citadels are, have indices higher then that. Especially when it comes to reactions, indices will quickly show where the “reaction alts” are homed, as those systems spike in fees, making use of nullsec flashy T2 infrastructure costlier then the use of cheap unrigged backwater raitarus/athanors (including lowsec reactors and highsec engineering stations).

Let’s for simplicity assume you save 10% of the total production cost for heron frigates, which are the most expensive T1 frigates, and you fill a jump freighter with them, you get 150 Herons each selling for 0.7M isk, or 105M isk in total cargo, out of which you save 10% from using a hypothetical backwater t2 sotiyo at 0% index space over poorer highsec public accessible infrastructure, then you’d save 10.5M isk. That is hardly “great margins”, as you need to do that a thousand times to return of invest the jump freighter, the fuel price has not yet been accounted, and every time a venture cyno alt is blown up, it has to be replaced for around 8M isk… plus the inconvenience of JF-ing, jump fatigue, …

Great Income can be made with T2 or faction rigs on blingy infrastructure, but it’s not based on the per item price: The time consumption optimization that is provided by the rigs is almost 50% in null while it’s only 24% in highsec, which means that the null station pumps 35% more production in the same time as it’s highsec counterpart, so whenever yield is made, you make 35% more, independend of the production prize… actually you’re paying 35% more in null then in highsec within the same time, but you also end up with 35% output. If that output is output that actually generates yield, you end up with 35% more of it. Last time I checked a Survey Scanner II would provide 300% return of investment including average research cost, so I don’t care about 10% tax or not, and I can put 75.000 of them, or dozens of billions of isk, into a single JF… while the good old Damage Control II has considerably lower margins, but can be cashed out faster and more reliably as it has huge trade volume, and a JF can equally jump billions of isk worth of it in a single sortie. How much time does it take to create 75k damage controls? Certainly enough to make me consider using the 36% faster nullsec structure and jump freighting. T2 ammo/crystals of any variant goes like the DC2, it’s junk-priced per item but if you fill the JF it’ll be billions, and the trade volume for ammo is gigantic…

… less so for mining crystals but those are “expensive” per item compared to let’s say fury missiles. Oh, B-Type mining lasers, even the T1 ones, where quite nice yield last time I checked, too.

Accounting for JF fuel, production in highsec will be cheaper then production in null + JF-ing, but if the per-item yield is high enough and you can put enough items into a JF, the time saving will make up for it.

This.

Likewise, farm Kernite in WH-Space where there’s huge rocks of it, and if you can’t compress it, drop it uncompressed at the storyline agent stations rather then trying to reproc it… you can easily sell it for a convenience premium and missioners will buy it.

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Production per alt per day. Not per run per day.
And assuming you are present here exactly when the job stops to start a new one. For some jobs (you talk about mining crystals, DC …) if it’s 10hours or 12, for me it’s still 24H because I don’t want to come back from work to launch my new jobs.

The reality is that the cost of plexing a new triplet of alts (so 1b5 for 33 lines of production×30 days × 24h = 63k isk/h, and that’s without factoring the SP extraction and plex reductions from year-long subscription) makes that gain of time basically useless as long as you have availability of inactive crafting toons.

So basically the gain of time is … well worthless. Only usable for ME/TE research and copying the big BPs (like JF that take 30days/run copying + 30days/run invention with like 30% success :cry: )

Then the other costs besides the time are the hauling cost, the market cost (broker fees+ tax), the sourcing cost, the factory costs.
Hauling cost should be a flat % on sell price + volumic cost,
Sourcing cost depends on where and how you acquire the items but should be close to average game price ( -5% -hauling cost for things you build yourself, +2%+hauling cost for things you acquire from hub) and is reduced by total ME,
Market cost should be around 5-7% of SO depending on how disputed the market is,
Factory cost is based on sourcing cost with % = index×facility_tax (if you have 5% index and 5% tax then it’s 105×105/100/100 = +10.25%. basically equal to + for small values, not for bigger)

Once all is computed, your margin is (SO-costs)/SO (×100 to have percent)
So SO×(100-7-marg-haul)=sourcing×(100-ME+haul+fact_idx+fact_tax)
The important part here, is that ME and haul are opposed(and basically haul is doubled). so an increase in hauling cost can neuter a better ME.

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The tax is payed on the job gross price, which is the index fee with some modifications, not the estimated item price increased by the index fee (with modifications). Assuming 5% index fees, and 5% tax, you pay 0.05 * 1.05 = 0.0525 = 5.25% fees, not 10.25%

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As you said, the more convenient manufacture index is most likely where you have to spend more “effort” hauling (either hauling stuff yourself or paying others to do it).

The reason DC2 and friends make good yields is exactly as you state: people who login only once per day (or once every few days) will prefer running other jobs which have higher per-job (but lower per-running-hour) gains, as they won’t reschedule every 3hr interval, providing for less competition for DCs on the market. The same goes with most small and medium sized ship modules, damage amps and ewar mods. Starting with BS and suicide BC modules, a regular BPC can be scheduled to run for 24 hours if all available runs are used, which is why there’s more pressure on the market price of Cruiser Missiles (Launchers) then on Rocket (Launchers).
For the launchers, the Abyss consumes cruisers and frigates at a way higher pace then CODE can create battleship / marauder module demand, but for ammo, BS are very popular for ratting through all security zones.

Even if the job rescheduling ability is limited, the TE is important. Advanced Components for example are usually required in large quantities, but they can also be directly be sold for profit, as do reactions materials. Many Null Corps have “reaction programms”, so they run reactions but don’t actually turn those reactions into ammo / components, but instead sell the reactions for profit. Reaction material (and component manufacture) income scales linearily with TE, as the Reaction Formulas and Component BPOs allow to simply schedule larger batches as you please, opposed to final product BPC that are limited in the largest number of single job runs.

ME/TE Research and BP copying is good, but invention TE is also significant. Let’s take a look at the Simple Asteroid Mining Crystal Type B II… it’s the lowest manufacturing yield Type B II mining crystal, yet even if you were to produce in Jita 4-4 the yield, at 5.4M isk output for a 1.7M “investment” (according to eveonline-industry.com) is amazing, and the job completes within 8 minutes + modifications, i.e. 3 minutes in nullsec t2 or lowsec faction TE sotiyos. Max out the batch, and it’ll complete and generate 36M isk per participating toon within 30 minutes, well within the time you’re online anyways (it’s 36M “only” if you build in jita, elsewhere it’s more)… the only problem is that the BPC has to be acquired, and that bit isn’t part of the eve-industry computed investment price.

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Amamake is one of the highest index-ed systems in new eden, yet the “job cost” of 3k isk for running 100 batches of invention is neglectible compared to the 80M isk in datacore consumption. The non-skill-maxed toon researches at 46.8% success probability w/o aux items, and would likely produce an average of 46 ME2 BPCs each providing 10 runs, allowing it to manufacture crystals that sell for 167M isk more then the input materials’s pice according to eveonline-industry, remote-scheduled while running the SoE arc with a single toon, as long as you don’t forget to check your jobs for completion every now and then, let’s say everytime you turn in a mission…
Substract the 80M datacore price and you’re left with 87M isk side-channel income while grabbing some faction standings, which are shared in fleet, and can therefore be “sold” for a not-so-insignificant price, too.

In fact, while running the SoE arc, way more then 46x10 crystals could technically be produced with the single toon that is running the arc (or the mining op, or the CTA, or idling cloaky on the blops while complaining the hunter isn’t finding targets to drop on, …), if you had more BPCs. And here the TE rig comes handy: Amamake’s public engineering station has a T2 rig, in highsec it would have taken +35% time to research in a similarily configured citadel… to run a 1000 runs research job, it would take 10 days in Amamake, 14 in Perimeter, and more then 20 in an NPC station which aren’t just unrigged but also lack the engineering station role bonus, too. Again, using 10x100 run research jobs instead of 1x1000 run jobs of cause is an option, assuming you’re not researching something else already… even then, it’s 1 day in amamake, “basically 2 days” in Perimeter, and “basically 3 days” in Thukker Tribe Land.

As each BPC provides a user with the ability to make 3.7M isk right there in jita w/o undocking or logistics or anything, and consumes an average of 1.73M in datacores (less if the research toon is more skilled then I am) but require you to undock and fly to at least Perimeter to do the research, there’s a 2M gain window to sell the excess BPCs to corpsmates who look at their queues and reschedule more frequently, too.

For the sake of BPC trading there’s certainly items that sell for higher yield then mining crystals, though there are less tools for these then for raw production, and contract trade volumes aren’t public so you need to watch the contract markets on your own to analyze what prices cause trade.