New Player Industry?

Industry Gameplay Center Science & Industry
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Hello EVE Industry!

Fairly new player here, trying to wrap my head around Industry and how to get a return on investment on BPOs. I’m just baffled on how to get a profit to help pay for the construction of the BPO’s. Thing is, after doing all the math pretty much everything across the board is taking a loss as opposed to just selling the ore/minerals raw.

I’ve looked across the board for T1 Frigates and Cruisers that I enjoy flying as an example, and assuming I set up buy orders (and they actually get a return) I’m still taking a 5% to 10% loss once I do a resale on the market assuming I can get a sell order fulfilled (selling to buy orders are closer to a 30%-50% loss of profit).

From what I can gather, I have the following working against me:

Mining Ore (Across High/Low/Null) > 50% Reprocessing Loss > Reprocessing Fees > Material Efficiency Penalty > Industry Fees > -5% Taxes > -5% Broker Fees

I understand skills go a long way to help mitigate this, but how can a 3-5 month old character ever hope to get a return on investment for these BPO’s given the current limitations especially for T1 production? Am I missing something? Thanks!

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okay, lets see if i can help a bit. the CCP changes to scatter ore and force you to buy instead of mine all you need is the biggest issue. To get around this you need a solid corp or alliance. that will give you logistics support. in our alliance we dont put anything on market for our membes. that way we avoid transaction taxes. Also we have dedicated toons for reprocessing and a tech 2 rig so we get 89% return on reprocessing. most of us never charge each other for bpcs.
A solo industrialists has little chance of competing against organized ones. contact our recruiter Dorfsorc if you want to learn more.

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Are you trying to sell in Jita or a major hub? Margins are alot better if you manfuacture and sell at quieter systems, away from competition. Your sell volume will be lower, but you’ll make money. Try to sell next to low sec systems as people tend to lose ships alot in low sec, and would rather buy a new ship quickly at a premium rather than jump all the way back to Jita.

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The most important thing to know is that some items sell at a loss and some are profitable. There are many reasons for this - for example over production of items that every new industrialist thinks would be a good idea (Ship. Yeah, everyone buys ships, I’ll make a fortune!! Is what everyone thinks). I did that.
And there’s those in the “stuff I mine is free!” mindset. You are entitled to that view, but economists will point out the time and opportunity cost of that delusion.

T1 manufacturing may not make you a fortune - though there are some really good items out there (sorry that’s a hard learnt list). But there are some good basics.
Ammunition. Particularly the common high damage types - Antimatter, Multifrequency, missiles. Stuff people, especially mission runners buy by the bucket full. Drones. A few other bits and pieces.
Don’t do T1 modules if there are reasonably cheap meta-items: so Small Light Beam I doesn’t sell because the meta versions - same skill but more range or lower fitting or higher damage - need the same skills and aren’t expensive. So saying, some T1 modules sell because they are needed for T2 manufacturing.

The other useful tip:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/
This site has a good tool, put in the name of the item you are making and the information about where you are manufacturing and what markets you are using and it’ll give you a steer as to the profitability.

Some BPOs are quite expensive for a new player, and they will take some time to return a profit - they are definitely worth researching ME on them, that 10% is a must to be competitive.

Good luck.

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My primary concern right now is I’m with a group of friends and we are trying to learn it as part of our enjoyment of the game. We are trying to find the most efficient and enjoyable use of our time with regards to industry. I’ve elected to spearhead Reprocessing and Research. Though after we all worked on the math it just wasn’t adding up.

Correct me if I am wrong but what I am hearing is thus:

Mining Ore (Across High/Low/Null): Available either for free (cost is time/opportunity cost) or at a discounted rate through fleet ops. Arguably could make more isk/hour simply selling the ore raw.

50% Reprocessing Loss + Reprocessing Fees: Needs anything over 70% to really return a profit. Essentially close to max skills, implants, and a station to help get this number to 80’s? Basically gotta invest a good 2+ months alone to get any kind of return on this? Requires experienced Corp/Alliance to be successful?

Material Efficiency Penalty > Industry Fees >: This seems to simply be a matter of time with reduction in research skills. 5 months to get ship hulls researched to max efficiency or hope you have a corp/alliance willing to donate/sell on the cheap BPCs.

-5% Taxes / -5% Broker Fees: Skills and having the right player station?

Given the above, is it even possible for a small corporation to have a chance of turning a profit without also setting our own starbase and having maxed out skills? At what point in one’s EVE career can one expect to see any kind of return on investment?

After checking out Fuzzwork it seems much more efficient to sell the ore with sell orders while simultaneously establishing buy orders for the items we wanted to have built. Otherwise all the items I would normally buy T1 are built at a loss assuming there isn’t also a META alternative. Trying to turn a profit for the corp so we can invest in some PvP fun is our end goal here. If all else fails we can plan to just use what we’ve already invested and instead use it to build our own small reserve to help facilitate our buy orders. Is this typical/worthwhile for a small corp/group of friends? Thanks!

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You can be a successful solo industrialist but you need an edge, in my case it was lots and lots of spreadsheets which detail my material stocks incorporating daily prices downloads from fuzzworks so that every morning I had an automated margin report for all my BPCs/BPOs. The margin report was % profit over the cost of materials (regardless of gathered or purchased) and costs of manufacture & sale. Sometimes you still get it wrong due to daily market changes but it gave steady income and was my gameplay for a couple of years until I got bored and moved on.

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A newbro has a very, very hard time turning a profit on industry. Especially in high sec. Between larger players with a lot more gathering power, better facilities, and better research… I feel ya.

Fuzzwork is a great tool, as an aside, and getting some good sheets set up is critical for a well ran industrial operation.

Your best bet to get started, as the dude above said, is ammo in mission hubs. If you’ve got your head around the basic idea, trying to find someone who has an overwhelming stockpile of researched BPC’s they want to part with just to clear their hangar would be a great break in getting some BP’s to work with. As a currently inactive sort of industrialist, a lot of guys have a container full of the things sitting around they’re never going to use and can’t be bothered to sell cause setting up contracts that won’t make more than 2 mil isk just isn’t worth the time.

But your best bet would be to group it like you’re doing. Look for cheapo BPCs with good research/lots of runs, bulk gather material whenever you get a good price, and try to sell at anywhere other than Jita or Amarr, where people will be more likely to pay a convenience markup so they don’t have to go to Jita or Amarr.

If all my stuff weren’t in asset safety right now(and a ludicrous fee to get it out) I’d happily contract you a bunch of my old BPC’s to get started. But, at the moment, I can’t justify the time, isk, etc to free my BPO library… or even my ships for that matter.

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This is definitely true, many mission hubs lack proper supplies, suggestion would be in a region where the trade stations are in view of these mission hubs but enough jumps out that it makes travel a hassle, then sale at a markup that’s reasonable and you’ll have your profits, after a while you’ll learn what many mission runners need.

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It’s a bit advanced for new players but my IPH app can help you plan what to make. Industry requires a lot of planning and spreadsheets so I try to make that easier. Give me a shout in game and I can help you out with general industry as well.

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If you’re in a small corp, don’t invest in your own structure. You’ll lose it due to wardec in highsec.

Depending on the bpo’s you’re investing in, you can get a return on investment (long term) by selling bpc copies. That tends to only work for cap bpo’s though. Sell them in kits.
Sub-cap are relatively inexpensive and there are a Lot of available bpo’s already out there, fully researched.
T1 weapons or modules are hit or miss. They’re generally really crappy, and have a higher fit value than other variations. If you’re looking to get into t2 production, there are slightly better margins.
However, that takes work and months of skills.
Farm your own data cores for invention, mine in null with alts, mine in highsec with mains.
Do your reactions in null with full skills, do your pi in null with full skills.
Reprocessing has max yields in null, but can be accomplished in highsec using player station. Again, max skills and implants.
Do some networking in game to get access if they don’t let just anyone dock. You’ll incur fees though, so I’d say either way it’s better to do in null.
Invest in your own hauling and safe routes, or rely on a null logistics team. Fees apply based on who you team up with. You may be able to negotiate them down.

Pick your market. A small corp will Never be able to get into every market and pull profit. Do your due diligence on the market you are trying to get into.
Only place sell orders on character with Max trade skills. If you sell at an npc station, get max standing, so you can lower your fees.
Don’t be afraid to fully fit ships and sell them on contract.
Better yet, figure out the doctrine ships of whatever null alliance you might choose for reprocessing and manufacture, and make those.
The majority of the market is built in null for a reason.
As was mentioned above, if you plan to produce in highsec, find lower populated areas to sell to. Find out what that area uses most, and sell to it.

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Definitely, there are zombies that roam just to find vulnerable structures, besides this core thing, and fuel cost, blah.

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This was really solid advice, and it looks like no matter what we’ll likely need to specialize and divide for at least three months (if not more) while also investing in select BPOs to really corner a market.

Thank you and everyone else for some great advice! Got a lot to digest now and a LOT of work for our Corp to do…

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Right now Eve is going through an ecosystem rebalance - following several years of essential “infinite” availability of resources, CCP has reintroduced scarcity into the game.

This has had a dramatic impact on the mineral price index but the consumer price index hasn’t budged - we’re still working through stockpiles. Production has fallen steadily over the past year in spite of stable player count and a huge war that’s still in progress.

I have no idea when CCP will loosen the screws but I’m starting to see selling prices move up for some items which is promising.

As a group of new players interested in industry, I’ll first recommend that you get as far away from Jita as you can. You’re looking for low volume, high margin business and are better off working in one of the smaller, regional markets. Study the markets and look for profitable opportunities. You can probably do quite well simply selling compressed ore until you have the skills and market knowledge to get into manufacturing profitably.

As a group of friends, I recommend you practice running missions and anomalies as a fleet. The seasonal events are now optimized for fleets and can be very lucrative. The next one will be the Guristas themed Hunt around Easter.

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If you don’t have perfect reprocessing skills, you’re better off having someone else refine your ore for you.

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Sorry for the delay in replying.

I used to do some work for a corporation supplying standard ship fittings - I’m an industrialist by nature. I’m fairly high skilled, and while a lot of things I could make it was more effective to make “the most profitable things” and use those profits to buy the items I want.

For example:
I have 15m ISK.
I want item A that costs 1m ISK to make and sells on the market for 1.1m ISK. I can buy 13 or make 15.
Or
I make Item B. That costs 2m ISK to make and sells for 2.6m ISK. I turn my 15m ISK into 18.2m ISK, then I can buy 17 of the item A I want.

Making item B gives me more of Item A.
There may be a satisfaction if flying a ship you built yourself (and I can see that) but sometimes you have to shake the dead hand of economics for an objective of maximising output.

Anyway, Uncle Terak is rambling.

I’ve looked at bulk reprocessing as a business opportunity in the past: I’ve maximum reprocessing skills, access to a good refinary and it’s still a marginal business. Set up buy orders somewhere where people mine (rookie systems - I was going to make a fair offer, drive the prices up a bit there to stop new players being a bit ripped off) - but the haulage was going to be a pain, especially given the physical volume of the ore. Others may find space-trucking fun: to me it’s an unfortunate fact of life. I find industry fun, combat less so. But that’s Eve: Allsorts in the bag - rip the head off Bertie if you don’t like how he tastes.

As a small corporation:

If you use an NPC station to refine, buy or sell, or manufacturer then look at the activity indexes, get good standings with that NPC corporation, train up the relevant refining and trade skills. All the little 2% and 0.1% offs add up to a competitive edge.
NPC stations are never as advantageous as a player owned station. But they are low hassle and less risk (you are paying a premium for that).

You can set up a nice refinary of your own somewhere off the beaten track. But if you own it you have to deal with all the associated liabilities - fueling it, capital investment for it and it’s fittings, a core. And defending it or replacing it when someone wants to kick it over.

Or you can talk to another group and negotiate favourable rates for using their refinary - a lot of places will give you a lower tax rate just for regular business, or if you are willing to help them defend their stations. Or you could offer yourselves as help to their manufacturing wing.
Maintain a modicum of independence, but work with a group.

Is it worthwhile?
I like making things. I sell them at a profit - optimising the supply chain, reading the market for opportunities really floats my boat. I can be happy as a soloist (and the market has been good to me recently - weird good).
Ultimately, it’s what makes you content.
And that’s different for different people.

For an industrialist/manufacturer there is a lot to offer in New Eden - it’s a matter of making it work for you.

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Please note here that I am by no means an expert on this, I’m not sitting around pouring stuff into a spreadsheet, I simply don’t have time and don’t know how.
But…
I have been almost unable to make a profit doing industry, I have good skills and a bunch of fully researched blueprints that I don’t use because to make things with them costs more that it does to just buy the things themselves. This is not everything however, doing planetary stuff I can make nanite repair paste and do ok at it, but it takes forever and I do the planet stuff in wormholes. It’s not fun, it’s tedious and debatably not worth the time. Maybe I’m getting between seventy and a hundred million a month doing this, but it’s a hateful tedious process that involves a lot of jumping and huge risk.
I do know someone however who has been buying large numbers of ships and reprocessing them and then using those resources to build new stuff, he has a skill (I think it’s something like scrap metal reprocessing) to IV or V, I forget which. He’s making a killing by doing this, and from what others are saying it sounds like he’s taking advantage of peoples tendency to think “Yah! I will make a ton of ships and get rich”. What kills me about this is that he is making it so they kind of are, they make a pile of ships, he buys all of them, chops them up and makes other stuff or just sells the resources.
I’m not trying to be discouraging here, but unless you are mining successfully all over space it’s pretty hard to make much due I guess to the scarcity thing CCP inflicted on us. I personally hate mining and only do it when I want to make something I need. I have blueprints that I spent months researching and skills that I spent ages training that right now are kind of useless to me.
My goal was to use industry to fund learning PvP in faction warfare, it’s been a spectacular failure, I can’t afford to make to make the ships I need let alone their fits which I also have blueprints for.
To be fair, I suck at PvP and have never won a real fight, if I fight I die, if I die I lose my ship, if I build a new one it costs more than twice (or more) what it costs to just go buy a new one.
I do this mainly solo, and that doesn’t help I guess, maybe having a full infrastructure of miners, raters, and so on with a good player station to do things in but the people involved still have to have an income and so I suspect they would all just be better off gathering resources and selling them where the prices are high.
This brings up another problem, changes to player stations have made them much more vulnerable, there are far fewer of them, and the price of running them has gone way up. This isn’t helping.

I’m not giving up though, when scarcity ends… If it does, I could go right back to it. I love making things, with all the violence and destruction in Eve it’s very satisfying to actually create stuff that people want.

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Kinda interested how big of a group you are and whats your prime time. Left Eve long ago due to my awful time zone and some rl stuff. Was obsessed with pvp at that time, right now returned and more interested in research and manufacturing. I cannibalized my old pvp character for a ■■■■ ton of injectors and right now setting up one of my alts as a new main for processing, research and manufacture + another alt as trucker( t2 transport and freighter). I think in a day or two i will have all ore processing skills (except moon ones) at 4. Meaning i will be loosing only last 2% on each reprocessed ore. If we could set up some cheap Raitaru we can get things going. Searching some small high-sec/Low-sec corps anyway. The only problem on my side is lack of ability to speak clearly in English, it’s not my native language.

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Right now it is a small group of 3 Omega accounts and 2 Alpha account friends who have a common goal and just wanted to do something casual. We do a little bit of everything, but finding out quickly how much of an investment we will need to really get mining/industry/marketing going.

We’ve reached out to some of the local corps who call our part of space “home” and are working out business relationships/seeking out player owned stations willing to help out the small man. Thanks to some helpful players we’ve got a small thing going in Heimatar/Minmatar Space.

Each of the Omega accounts have dedicated to one or two elements of the process and are doing our best to spend a month or three investing in the skills needed for “entry level” Industry and we are all scouting the markets to see what works and what doesn’t. Ammunition has been an element that makes sense, but we also want to invest into Frigates/Destroyers/Cruisers (if not for direct sale then at least for T2 BPC resale). After which point we’ll be re-directing our efforts into flying the ships we produce (Both T1 and T2 ideally).

Fact of the matter is the common consensus both in this chain and in other forums/youtube vids/social networks is that the entire rebalancing is causing a bit of a stir. There is still a massive reserve of ships out there that the rebalancing hasn’t touched yet. Gotta get through all that (may take a while) before seeing any kind of worthwhile investment for T1 research/industry.

I just want to thank everyone again for all the feedback and help. Will be a few months before we see a large return but we’ve at least got something started. For those having trouble know you aren’t alone but with any thing in EVE things will change and we just gotta adapt. When in doubt, lean on those who suffer the same blight and work together to find a solution for the benefit of all.

As for Rusty_Wreck not sure how much help we can be but we are always on the search for potential allies/business relationships. Feel free to reach out to me in game and we can work something out I’m sure.

Cheers!

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