New player industry and its issues

I was inspired to writing this, by CCP Rattati interview on Oz twitch stream.
But first, few things before we dive into wall of text. I’m not native English speaker. It probably will be grammatical nightmare. And I’m not better at explaining stuff, especially in English. But I will try hard to make it as easy to read and understand as possible.

If I remember and understand correctly CCP Rattati main question and idea for discussion was “How new player (day 1) can start profitable industry?”

In stream he explains “profitable” as “enough for living”. I think 90% of isk making activates are considered profitable when you can afford 500 plex by the end of month (30 days). “Free” omega is goal that many players have and often is one of first long term goal that new players make.

Explaining what can be considered as profitable activity is especially important in industry because it’s really easy to get more isk than you invest into production. Even as new player or alpha player (additional 2% tax). There is enough t1 items that will sell for more isk than it’s cost to produce. Ammunition, rigs even some t1 modules. Problem is, that even if you are theoretically make positive amount of isk. Or margins in % seams high. Actual volume of isk in this item is extremely low. So even if you for example produce ammunition 24/7 and successfully sell it at positive margin. By the end of month, you probably won’t make more than few hundred million of isk. Making this activity not worth it for many players, especially as main and only activity.

Meta modules and PvE drops also resulted in 99% of basic t1 items being useless. Resulted in them, being only another material required for T2 production nothing more. You can make more t1 ammunition ratting in null sec than doing industry. There is no real demand for t1 industry. No demand for items that new player can produce. Exception are t1 rigs that can be produced by new and alpha players. But again, volume of isk and volume of trade is low. Low enough that it’s hard to make bigger profit over time.

Natural conclusion is going into t2 production. Well, even if you specialize in one item or group of items you want to produce. From day 1 to actual being able start job (including invention), you need around 30 days of skill training at omega rate. Not to mention you also need omega to do t2 industry. Since this is obviously out of new player reach, I won’t dive into T2 production.

Trade. Market and industry are tied together really hard. You can’t make isk from industry without at lest basic understanding of market. But what is industry and what is trading? When you google “EVE industry guide”. Most if not all will suggest to not sell your produced goods in major trade hub, for bigger profit. But the question is: this is profit from industry or trading? If the price outside hub is higher. You can buy same item on market sell somewhere else and make same isk. My point is, that teaching about market should be in line with teaching about industry or even before that. Since this two activates are dependent on each other.

Difference in other areas of space. Or I should say, lack of difference. There is no benefit or disadvantage of producing in Caldari, Gallente, Amarr or Minmatar space. Each area of space is identical from mechanical standpoint. Yes, we have high security space, low and null. With different bonuses. But result of this is only one: If you want to do industry go to null or quit. I think good example for possible solution are thukker rigs for lowsec structures. Resulting in theoretically more profitable, capital production in lowsec. We should have different bonuses and maybe negative effect per unique geographical areas of space. This goes for all aspects of EVE but let’s focus on industry for now.

Competition. Only difference makes amount if isk you have and how good spreadsheets you have. When isk is only advantage. New player can never be competitive. Yes, you can buy isk or buy sp. But no matter how much RL money you dump, there is always someone how has more isk or have more optimized production chain. There needs to be some sort of niche for items that new player can produce with demand for them. But on other hand make them not very interesting for vets. Diminishing returns? Character age restrictions? Already mentioned geographical bonuses?

In game tools for industry are garbage. It’s fact. Using estimated values from in game tools guarantee that you will only lose isk. If you want to make profit from industry you must use third party software, excel etc. And since every new industrialist is your competition. There is not that much publicly available tools or guides to make own spreadsheet. Quite high knowledge of excel really must be mandatory to even think about industry?

I think that those are some of key issues with new player industry. Not all of them (I probably forgot few things that I wanted to mention during writing) but should be good enough starting point for CCP to start looking into it or at lest start discussion here and between devs.

I Rembert that when @Torvald_Uruz published his CSM presentation about FW, advice on how presents ideas for CCP was to outline issues rather than jump to ideas and solutions. I tried to focus on this rather present my own ideas. I pointed out few concepts that I had in mind. But I hope that this won’t have negative effect on whole message.

I understand that CCP don’t always reply but I hope that at lest someone from company will give it a read.
Feel free to discuss, and add your own insights on the issue. Keep it civil and don’t instantly trash thread with personal fights. Thanks and I appreciate you reading up to this point.

@CCP_Rattati

Google docs version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_zf9hsFc2ZrTYx8BONHySV9gpCIRUgEyapqqrotVnD8/edit?usp=sharing

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monitoring this thread!

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I dont think his view of “enough for living” equates to anything like 500 PLEX.

And I dont think it does in anyone who plays for fun’s mind either

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Returning player. Must say I do not like the lack of Asteroids. The removal of Niarja is a massive pain in the backside.

However I still love the game and the community. EVE always calls out for returning players - in my case an irresistible call.

I am figuring out what I want to do and it will probably be making T2 drones.

Gala.

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Don’t let the negative Andy’s wear you down.

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CCP axed my main income as a producer/trader by reducing demand of citadels plus PI, and inflating mineral prices.

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It’s really hard to think of anything a new player can build and sell, that an older player can’t build cheaper and sell with lower overheads. About the only thing going for the T1 items is that older players may prefer to spend their industry slots on higher profit items.

If instead of meta items dropping, perhaps fixed stat mutaplasmids dropped to be used for turning T1 items into meta items. I recall that idea coming up a couple or more years ago.

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I do not agree with that at all. I used to have a very profitable indu line going on producing T2 modules and ships for sale in Amarr. I stopped not because profits dwindled but because the fall of Niarja puts an unreasonable burden on me to get materials from Jita to Amarr. No, there is still no reason whatsoever to buy expensive Amarr materials for production because will still undercut you and since you cannot update your orders anymore without creating even more loss, there is no point – and will never be and who says the opposite has no clue at all – in buying materials at a higher price just because they are closer to your production place.

And this is not an issue. At all. Making people believe that an advanced activity such as T2 production should be available to people from the get go is ludicrous.

In essence even more income in a risk-free environment? That sounds like a great idea. How about we use the capital spawns in null and low sec instead? They already drop materials for building capital meta modules. CCP ought to expand on that to give regions of space distinguishing features and increase trade movement and production demand for t1 meta 0 items without including this atrocity of abyss space into industry more than it should be (which should be 0, but that is only my opinion). In the same vain, data sites should drop mandatory production items for pirate faction ships and modules so that these exploration sites have an actual point for existing and provide actually meaningful rewards. And you know what’s the best thing with these 2 suggestions? There is 0 need for coming up with new items. The necessary items already exist in the database: EVE - Market (This list shows the former materials for Interfaces from data sites and unused faction materials (not to be mistaken with the capital materials from capital spawns) lingering in the Database.)

You’re right.
Grinding for PLEX isn’t my goal, has not been since I started and won’t be from now on.
OP assumes too much. He takes his case for a generality.

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T2 production is out of reach typical new player.

Never said that. Only wanted to point out completely skipping t1 and jumping straight into T2 is probably not in reach of new player. And again t2 industry is not and shouldn’t be part of this discussions as I and CCP suggesting topic specified that this is intended to solve issues of very new players.

This is topic thrown by CCP. Go watch end of interview to get better idea. Plex was used as common and know goal or income benchmark. In my opion using exact values/example (500 plex in this case) was better at explaining healthy income rather than throwing meaningless “profit”. 1 isk is profit same as 1 bil. Word itself don’t represent value.

Feel free to explain what can be considered healthy income in your opinion for day 1 player interested in industry.

I didn’t included fun in main post as this was well explained by Oz in the stream

I’m always interested in industry but I don’t care about “income” in the game so I won’t care about explaining it. Income, for me, is in real life, I’m not on EVE to have a second career.
I don’t play to get ISK-rich, I play for the fun of it. I don’t care about the best of blah blah blah, I care about evasion, a reprieve from real life, entertainment.

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They can build T1 ships and Ammo just fine. They are profitable enough and sell in high enough quantities to generate some reasonable income.

But it’s a funny thing. Anything you build now and cannot sell until CCP reintroduces more minerals into the economy again, will inevitably lead to similar situations that we already had with the mineral composition rebalance of ships and battleships in particular. Some BS have not been feasible to build for many years from a profit point of view because prices were way below the new production cost. CCP’s on the way to create the same situation again but for a lot more things.
Back when this happened, I had just bought a new Armageddon BPO because I thought it would be cool to build this ship and make some money (I had been building other BS at the time from purchased BPC which was a nice income). Mere days after I started researching it to better ME and TE values, CCP dropped the bombshell that would make it impractical to build Armageddons. So I decided to pursue ME10 and TE20 for the BPO to do something useful with this thing that cost me over a Billion ISK. And since then it has been sitting in my hangar doing exactly nothing. Did I quit? Did I feel useless? No. But I started to feel less favorable about CCP developments. :slight_smile:

Indeed. I’ll just paste what I wrote on Reddit earlier:

I don’t enjoy mining, when I started 3 months ago people told me to do so and it almost made me quit. Luckily I found some good help and guidance via Rookie channel and now I’m doing stuff that makes me 60-100 mil/h and I enjoy doing.

Very recently I created my second omega account to do “constructive teamwork” with in regards to manufacturing and similar. I finally found a small corp that is actually active (and are not just alts that never log in because their mains are in zero space) and is working on being self sufficient.

Every time we talk about certain minerals or other stuff we need I resort to “why just not buy it with the profit I make with other things” where they want to do it all by themselves as much as possible, and now I’m starting to take part in it and enjoying the “build it with your own hands” concept. I don’t CARE about how from an income POV is wasted time. Just as how I don’t CARE about pvp being a net negative.

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That’s well said :+1:

What makes you think I didn’t watch the whole interview?
Again, you assume too much and you are arrogant in thinking that only you understands what’s up.

all your issues come from this assumption :

That’s where you are wrong. If everybody could easily do that activity, then the value of that activity would be divided by the amount of people doing it. In industry, there is a fixed value that you can do. Finding place where you activity is wanted, streamlining your production, is what makes people be able to get wealthy in industry, while most people are losing their time and money.

So yes it’s complex and the tools don’t make it super easy ; Well if it was super easy it would become worthless, and only a subset of the possible production parameter would be viable .

I started making benefits from industry when I had like 100B in BPOs and materials. Before that it was no benefit, many mistakes, touching, and spending the money I made from PVE for not actual return.

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Remember that pain is where the profit is.

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As above, there is opportunity for new players to make isk doing industry.

Mutaplasmids makes me cringe but yes meta module production should have happened ages ago.

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Well, yes. Profit/isk was mentioned and I focused on isk making aspect. I lack mindset of some people here that only look at “fun” and completely ignore isk. I measure my progress mainly by how thick my wallet is after given time frame. But while isk is important for me I’m not die hard, min/max person. I do stuff that gives me joy first. Then look for efficient way to make isk inside that activity.

That being said. After some replies here I was convinced to do personal challenge that I thought about for some time. I’m gonna make fresh character that won’t buy anything from market (expect blueprints). Everything it will own will be from industry and PvE drops. I will see how far I can take it and maybe I finally gonna look at EVE from different perspective.

While I was thinking about fun from industry (ignoring isk and profits) I thought about abyssal mutaplasmids and named modules. Add name of character or corporation that produced item to it’s information. Ideally show it on kills etc. Ability to simply put own flag out there say “this was ship/item I made” while looking at fights or political shenanigans. In my opinion it might give may players reason to just produce stuff “for fun”, to show off own name or name of your group.

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