You seem to have something against fun while, and correct me if I’m wrong, a game is primarily about fun.
No wonder you complain so much. You think playing EVE will make you rich.
How long have you been playing EVE? Did you get to buy a luxury item in real life thanks to EVE? Do you hope or are you doing RMT out of EVE? Then why do you care so much about ISK? To sub your accounts?
That’s exactly what CCP is trying to prevent players from doing.
I get that feeling as well. People seem to make choices which they ultimately don’t enjoy or grow bored of, all in the name of “more” and optimisation. The whole “Eve has sound?” and people playing on max zoom kinda attests to that. A zillion accounts of faceless alts, all racing to plex while, apparently, not enjoying the game.
They’re not enjoying the game when they have to PLEX their account with real life cash.
No wonder why they covet NullSec like a dragon does his treasure. More people getting that ore out of Null means less for their ISK-subsidies of account PLEXing.
My idea of fun doesn’t need to be your idea of fun. Don’t judge me by things you like.
I don’t complain and by wallet I mean in game character wallet. Give it a rest already. You take it to personal…
I starte playing few months before introduction of alpha and omega. I don’t get why you bring illegal RMT up but let’s just put it into misunderstanding and forget. By that time I probably poured thousands of euros into CCP pocket. I only lost money on EVE.
Very well. o7
You said yourself that there are things that new players can make that will profit. Why should a new player be on par with a vet? Part of any game is progression, meaning that spending more time on something gives more options and better results.
Who cares? I make enough isk for my needs. I don’t care if someone makes more than me. Focus on yourself rather than being jealous of other players. You don’t need to buy ISK or SP whatsoever.
There are plenty of items that new players can produce with demand for them. Perhaps you are not looking hard enough. Remember also that once there is “demand” and a bunch of people can profit then they rush to produce that item crashing the price. Capitalism. Follow the ebbs and flows of the market. Items go in and out of style.
Artificial restrictions like you are proposing will only make the market/industry worse. But not only that don’t make sense. There are however some items that are more lucrative for noobs already in the game. For example some missions/sites that are lower end drop tags which can be sold for descent ISK. The vets won’t usually bother with that low end content to get them as they don’t drop all the time. But a noob running the content anyway can get these items and sell them to vets looking for them.
I don’t see this as a problem either. Again capitalism. People putting effort into optimizing their industry/market trading are going to keep their methods secret. What do you think happens if the most profitable methods are made public? The profit for it crashes.
The game shouldn’t just hand everything to you. Part of playing a “game” is solving it/defeating it/etc. If the game just hands you everything and has no mystery then what is the point of playing? If the game lacks depth in different professions then what sets apart anyone from anyone else? For example, I have focused on PVP, so I don’t expect to know as much as a person focused on mining about things like increasing profits from ore compression. I like that even after more than a decade playing there is still more that I don’t know and still things to discover.
As a 2003 Day One vet that has made a few hundred trillion ISK in production, this is a topic I feel I can contribute to. I’ll take my comments in reverse order from the final sale converting product to ISK back to raws:
The new market pricing changes are counter-productive, and they hurt newer poorer players the most. You can’t put large quantities on the market anymore unless you are just stupid or careless, because your profit is gone on 90% of your products the moment you have to reprice. So the markets are skinny, and will actually be more volatile because of the low quantities-per-order dynamic. The market brokerage fees aren’t a good idea to begin with, but making this latest ridiculous change is punishing to a builder, and accomplishes the opposite of a free-flowing open market that allows new players to beat others if they are willing to put in the effort. A new player doesn’t have the deep pockets or probably the understanding that repricing now means throwing away a large chunk of your margin. It’s a bad idea poorly implemented and I would revert this if I were you.
Market hubs are what they have been for years, but turning the route from Jita-Amarr into a 50 jump marathon thru the Sivala Uedama gank-fest gamut again hurts the newer player. I see on zkill noobs losing Itty 5s loaded with goodies and they have no chance. So, they either rage quit, or they move to Forge. Look at the map for MSCI I’d bet the large majority of production jobs in the whole game are done within 5 jumps of Jita and its only going to get worse. Who is going to haul anything worthwhile across that hot garbage of gankers other than new players? So the whole of industry revolves around Jita and this actually reduces the chances for new indy players to find a niche or open a new market. You should make it easier to move product around, not harder. And, by the way, why not eliminate the use of rookie ships for hi-sec ganking. It’s a zero-loss zero-risk activity which seems grossly unfair that the attackers lose a ship which costs them nothing to acquire and can be replaced in 15 minutes for free.
If I worked for CCP I would subsidize and actively support some of the good but dieing 3rd party indy sites. Yeah I have my spreadsheets but I know the game and have been playing for 18 years. So I know what products to focus on. New players need resources to understand where to start.
https://www.adam4eve.eu/ - awesome data which used to work great to see trends and what was moving. you should support it so new players can understand where to start and where to focus
EVE Industry - Blueprint Calculator - this site is the best executional building site I know if it were up to date. give this guy a free monthly sub - and then include it in all new player accounts. Its fantastic for knowing which products to produce in which manner for better margins.
Fuuzworks is good and so is Lazy Blacksmith but in using those you kind of already have to know the game and know where to look.
Invention needs to be reworked. Randomness and confusing artifacts combined with datacores and BPCs, with no relationship to the quality of the BPO research, and no clear way to gauge which artifacts for which products are most economical (without a seriously complicated spreadsheet) means T2 is far out of reach for new players. You may say it depends on skills, and sure it does, but who invents without L5 skills anymore? It’s meaningless now. Allow the player to invest T1 components, or reverse engineer parts, or add in minerals, or gases or components from other tech trees. The segregation of the T2 and T3 tech trees has never made sense to me. Allow the player to influence the outcome and quality of the T2 BPC more than allowed now, and provide a clear set of documentation so new players can understand it. Or hire one of the 3rd party website guys to do it.
Moon Goo. What can be more fun that installing a moon goo job in a refinery and the guy running the refinery forgets to fuel it and - POOF - there goes a couple billion worth of raws and likely your appetite to ever do moon goo processing ever again. This mechanic is seriously flawed. Moon goo should be able to be mined in hi-sec - all the way up to 1.0 - so noobs have a chance at it, and it should be able to be processed in stations so noobs can learn how to do it without the major investment to figure it out. Then if they want to put up a refinery or use some other corps refinery that’s fine. But right now its so out of reach to be almost exclusive and available only to the deep pockets.
Mining. The out-of-control hi sec ganking of miners ought to tell you something. If you want to give new players a chance, then make mining barges much sturdier, and/or give them systems where they have some higher level of protection. As it is, these new players get a paper thin barge and here comes CODE and forget about it. As usual, CCP puts all the advantages to the attackers and gives the industrialist little to no protection. This has to change if you want new players to be able to make it in the indy miner path.
Hope this helps. I have more if you want to hear it.
Driven
Getting involved into industry sooner ? We always seem to bump into the same walls.
Rework the career agents, in this case industry. 1) use the career agents to teach more about the user interface (they don’t, in their current format), 2) make their missions interacting with the player (get some confirmation the latter has learned something) 3) intertwine it with the business career agent - or perhaps combine both. In other words, some level of guidance will go a long way.
This may all sound minimalistic but the fact is that, after all is said and studied, there is no real reason for new players to NOT get involved in industry bar the usual learning curve. The question is essentially one about flattening our famous learning curve. Everything is in place, and it is the same for everyone who ever plays EvE. Of course with the proviso that one has to go out and look for information - unexpectedly for new players perhaps that non-ccp sources need to be consulted. As with everything, one needs to train the relevant skills, and do some heavy reading and figure out what makes sense to build and sell. That takes time, and there are no magic solutions to reduce that time unless EvE’s richness is broken down. We have the most complex economical system of any game, one that may even give some economy professors a headache.
Being successful means one has to be smart about things. That’s where the fun is, and the game’s longevity.
I also agree with some of the suggestions in this thread, for the vetting (or some other sort of reward) of useful websites like indeed the EVE Industry - Blueprint Calculator etc (although the latter seems to have some sort of eve account issue).
But since you are monitoring this thread, @CCP_Rattati , I’ll re-write here what I posted in another thread, within the context of getting new players involved earlier in Industry.
“as long as the team responsible for fixing the economy has no real vision and plan to create more destruction, a plan including new players, the longer it will take the game to recover, if at all …”
Guiding new players towards production is fine as long as destruction at least equals production. If not, the problem will become even larger.
Industry in Eve is a commodity business. There’s no difference between any given ship, module, or ammo of the same type, a Tengu is a Tengu, there is no quality difference or brand. As such economies of scale, vertical integration, and any efficiencies you can get out of the process will be critical to overall profit, and in larger markets large-scale players will dominate as a consequence. There is no changing that such that new players can be competitive in large markets without either breaking industry as a process or introducing immense complexity to ship selection by allowing for differences between industrialists for a single hull. As in real life, for a industrialist to compete without the benefit of large amounts of skillpoints or working capital, they have to seek out markets too small for the large players to be bothered with. As you said, low volume rigs, specific modules, etc. Industry is merely a more complicated extension of Trade, it’s foolish to think of them as separate processes, and in both cases a small player is best off in small markets.
Unlike others in this thread I think the broker fee changes were great. Placing limits on what you can sell based on the daily volume and your expected market share of that rather than the amount of time you’re willing to spend changing the price of the sell order makes for a more realistic and less time-intensive market, as otherwise the barrier to entry is being able to spend however much time each day relisting orders.
But above all i disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of restricting certain items to newbro construction through actual game mechanics, or with reducing the complexity of eve’s economy to benefit said newbros. A good chunk of people play eve for the market and industry aspect because its so similar to real life; small-scale artisans get put out of business by large, efficient factories in real life too. Let the newbros make their way up by selecting small but profitable niches to produce in, they don’t need game mechanics to give them a boost.
I was thinking the exact same thing today , but you got ahead of me 
This is exactly what they need to do first . If you want industry to be profitable for a new player , you have to come out with something that will encourage more destruction in the game , right now we already have more that enough people doing industry to satisfy the market demands. If you tilt the balance in the opposite side , it will make room for new players and then you can start to think on how to improve the industry mechanics and UI so that it will be appealing for new players. As it is now , it’s just too dependent on 3rd party applications. Also it is directly connected to everything that happens on the markets in Eve and last time I checked there isn’t any tutorial for them about trading and markets.
I mean i just read:
‘I’m terrible at playing the market. Terrible at industry. Don’t like hauling. And I’m going to use new players as an excuse to call for more ganking nerfs’.
They are.
But you cant just dump your entire load of battleships on the market without thinking. So people are complaining.
I think the biggest problem for new industrialists is that it is way easier and efficient for T2 producers to simply build all the T1 mods they need themselves and anyone who does a bit of PvE gets all the Meta 2,3 an 4 items they need to fit out their ships. Therefore the market for T1 mods is very limited.
There should be some a set of items that are needed in production or ship fitting that are easy to build and incentivised to build in HS stations. Of course some producers will set up a character in HS to build them themselves but I think many would simply buy 1000 T1 Damage Controls from the market when they needed them rather than go to the hassle of suppling them themselves from HS or taking a loss on building them in Null. Also meta mods should need producing rather than simply dropping as mods,
The time required to build T1 items is very short so it doesn’t hit a T2 producers profit per hour to build a stack of T1 mods. If they took longer it would mean the value of the slots used would increase. At the moment it takes just over 2 hours to build a t1 battleship, that’s a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Creating a use for T1 mods beyond for further industry would be nice
Perhaps Meta mods shouldn’t be better than T1 in every way.
Then they would be useless and worthless. I though about modules dropped from PvE, being damaged and needed to be repaired by industry to turn into useful meta modules.
Anyway, after all those years I’m still surprised that one character, with one mouse click. Can reprocess all ore in New Eden in a instant…
I really like this idea. It’s in almost every other MMO out there. And would add incentive to build things. (At least for me).
Dray Cil
No they would not.
They need to be better in some way, and worse in some other way. The definition of trade-off.
| 5MN Microwarpdrive I | Tech I | 45.0 GJ | -25 % | 500 % | 15.0 MW | 500 % | 25.0 tf |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive | Tech I | 35.0 GJ | -25 % | 505 % | 15.0 MW | 500 % | 25.0 tf |
| 5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive | Tech I | 45.0 GJ | -20 % | 505 % | 15.0 MW | 450 % | 25.0 tf |
| 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive | Tech I | 45.0 GJ | -25 % | 505 % | 14.0 MW | 500 % | 21.0 tf |
the T1 should also have 505% speed, and a slight increase in the stats that have an enhancement : that is -2 activation cost(43GJ), +1 cap bonus(-24%), same PG, -10 to sig radius(490%), and -1to the CPU (24)
Eve has always been dependent on 3rd party programs, sites and documentation. It was a blessing, because those come from users - some of whom spend almost as many hours using the product as devs spend on programming it - so they did exactly what was needed, from experience. CCP doesn’t have the (human) resources and in game-experience to create similar tools and documentation. And, some of the tools are of excellent quality, obviously created by real world specialists in one domain or another.
A foreseeable problem was that by switching from the old API key to the more recent ESI system a few 3rd parties had to throw the towel into the ring. An aging player base, that used its initial drive and enthusiasm to create those tools early on, isn’t as enthusiastic anymore to go through the same heavy lifting again. We all mourn sites like battleclinic, or eve central, apps like eveHQ, a magazine like eon, the atlas, etc etc etc. Imagine what the result would be if the eve uni wiki would give up…
And here’s another worry of mine. Catering to the instant gratification crowd isn’t going to attract the highly skilled, imaginative and creative individuals that enriched and even enabled EVE by creating those tools and sites.
Obviously.
I have seen over the years a drop in the quality of players . I actually started late in 2008 and noticed this drop particularly after 2013.
There are some tools I miss too , but it’s the API to ESI transition that you mention that buried them and I really can’t blame the creators of those tools, it is just too much work involved to remake some .
When I said that there is a problem with industry being so focused on said tools , perhaps i failed to nuance the fact that communication is also a problem here , in a sense that new players don’t know of their existence and find out about them late or not at all . Can CCP facilitate this and make it more accessible to them ?! As you mentioned, for those enthusiastic and who will put the effort into it , this won’t be a problem, but to be realistic here , those are a minority .
Edit: Sometimes I interact with new players and there are times when some of them ask a complicated question , that requires a long elaborated discussion on that matter and since text chatting is not optimal for it or my time is limited for that day, i have no option but to link them a page with a lot of information to read or a tool that takes a lot of time to understand it or just simply a long YT video. I hate having to do this, but as you said Eve has evolved along with those 3rd party tools/websites and the reaction I get from those new players is often uproar . They just don’t want to consult them and think that I don’t want to help them by answering their questions.
Confirmed 
. But I think prospective EvE players like that have always existed. Those that don’t mind reading and looking up information are the real potential customers. But indeed, is this a simple matter of exposure to new players like that (e.g. in Rookie Help), or a general trend with the two-thumbs generation, lol. That being said, I’m amazed at the computer illiteracy of some rookies. Perhaps we really should guide them to EvE Echoes, but I have zero experience with that game.