A proposal for local chat

So today there was a blog redirect to reddit from zkillboard.

Here is that blog post for context: https://old.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/bss0v6/perfect_intel_is_going_to_kill_this_game_unless/

This prompted a long discussion by me and my fellow corp mates on how this problem could be solved. Specifically the local chat problem.

Our best plan looks something like this and I really feel CCP should consider this as a viable solution:

Each person has an independent timer per jump where they don’t appear in local. This timer would be somewhere between 1-5 minutes calculated so that most ships could cross a whole system and jump and never appear on local OR calculated to allow ships to warp and jump in smaller systems but still show up on bigger ones. There was also an idea thrown around that system and/or personal security status could effect this timer. Not sure on the balance aspect of that as we were just throwing ideas around but perhaps someone would like to do the leg work on that one. The concept is mostly about a delay timer to either allow unseen travel or unseen travel + a little time to surprise someone.

The second part of our idea involves a new ship that would work as a sort of advanced capital recon ship capable of spooling up over a timer and shutting down local completely for a duration of time. This spool up could even be shorter than the base timer for local and be a capital sized ship to balance the strength of the effect with the cost. This could allow large fleets to move around and sit still for longer periods of time without risk of being detected. It could also allow organized groups to shut down local en masse (usage limited to low sec and lower of course) for their home system if it was tactically advantageous to them but still provide counter play. As a side thought, the triglavian faction seems like a pretty cool one to introduce this with :wink:

I want to say as a final note, our ideas here were mostly shooting things around but our primary focus in thinking about it was trying to come up with ideas that allow for the creation of content. Giving players some control over local chat list I think is a really excellent way to create content in a game that I really don’t want to die. Thanks for taking the time to read this :slight_smile:

I would say more like thirty seconds so you have to make the gankers actually work for their freighter kills.

Personally, I’d love to see some changes to Local mechanics.

  • High Sec can continue the way it is. Names appear immediately, b/c you’re required to stay registered with the authorities.
  • Low Sec would have your name appear immediately… if you entered the system through a Gate, b/c you had to register when you came through. If you jump into the system, your name doesn’t appear until you speak in chat, or (complicated mechanic here) if you’re observed by the authorities. And even then, your name disappears after 15min, or if you’re noticed somewhere else. If you aren’t noticed, your name could remain in a system you already left. =)
  • Sov-less Null works like Wormholes. Nobody shows up unless they speak. And it disappears after 15 min. Since nobody owns that space, nobody is maintaining the Local registry.
  • Sov Null can turn Local functions back on with Sov structures/functions. Then it operates like Low Sec. And the Sov holders can use Standings or Access Lists to choose which people do and do not appear in Local when they’re noticed. So you may jump into an “empty” system only to realize it’s FULL of hostile locals.

dscan would still be a thing, plus gankers already in the same system would still show up instantly to those freshly entering it if they had been in system for longer than the timer. The timer would just be like a delay timer to show up in local for people traveling through. If anything it would probably make ganking more difficult because they would be sitting in one spot in the same system while their target wouldn’t show up in local till they were on dscan assuming they don’t have eyes on gates which they usually do already anyway. Most other mechanics would work as they do now already.

As a side note, that’s why one of my buddies suggested it be based on sec status. Higher sec status = less timer so you show up faster in local which makes sense from multiple standpoints.

Also as I am typing this…

" * Sov Null can turn Local functions back on with Sov structures/functions. Then it operates like Low Sec. And the Sov holders can use Standings or Access Lists to choose which people do and do not appear in Local when they’re noticed. So you may jump into an “empty” system only to realize it’s FULL of hostile locals."

This is a bad idea…a very bad idea…giving the owners of a system the ability to cloak their own members would make seiging sov space way more dangerous than it is and the goal here is to make it easier to move around in ALL systems for everyone so that massive intel networks of null alliances can’t stop content before it happens. This would do basicly the opposite of that >.> although I for one wouldn’t be opposed to null sec losing local completely like WH’s I think it would be too drastic a change and would take away from some of the uniqueness of wormhole space. Hence the timer idea to give a best of both worlds solution.

Having said all this, the more I think about it though, the more I think timers based on system sec status wouldn’t be a bad idea. 30 seconds in 1.0 down to 2 minutes in 0.1 or something and 2.5-5 minutes in null or something

If local is on a per system basis Intel is too good for someone. Delayed or instant is irrelevant.
To balance it it has to be on a constellation wide basis at least.

Someone suggested that as well during the discussion with my corp. We discounted it though because when you think about it, having constellation chat only would get very spammy indeed. Not to mention it would still have similar problems to local even if it was a broader scope. Plus local does allow a lot of social interaction and communication to people in the moment so taking it away completely might make the game world feel a lot smaller in many ways. Some of this is opinion based I know but bottom lining it, with no local and still instant constellation chat, the problem still exists, its just slightly less accurate than before.

Local has not and will not kill EVE. This is sensationalism and totally unfounded idiocy. EVE has thrived with local and local free areas like W-space are still mostly deserted areas.

The fix that we need is not ingame but out of game: Intel tools like NEAR2 need to be made a bannable EULA breach. Done.

So… less than perfect Intel doesn’t solve the issue of perfect Intel… Noted.

@Rivr_Luzade.
WH space is empty for other reasons. Not local or lack of local.

This isn’t sensationalism. Eve is a different game these days because of the amount of tools that have been created and the items/content abilities that have been added since its founding. This problem has been around a long time and is a big contributor to content drought. The whole point of this discussion is that enforcing rules against 3rd party intel gathering mechanics is only viable up to a certain point and it all costs heaps of money that takes away from the development of content for the game. Is it possible to police it? Sure, mostly anyway. Do I wish that could be the solution? Absolutely. But it isn’t a viable or reasonable option from a financial standpoint which is why alternatives are being discussed in the first place.

@Nevyn_Auscent is right too, WH space is empty for other reasons and has little to do with the local mechanics.

Completely spaced out on replying to this. You know constellations only consist of about 8 ish solar systems on average right? So if someone is in the next constellation over and you enter the one right next to it, they still know you are ~8 jumps away or less. Its the same problem either way.

It’s not perfect Intel though. you have to do some work to actually find them. The perfect Intel is the issue. Not that there is some Intel. Some Intel is good to connect people.

I agree having intel is fine, but intel that is easy to gather without even being ongrid is my main problem. I have 0 issues with someone being out in system sitting cloaked or moving between systems and reporting movements to an intel channel like the good ol’ days but instant accounting from automated sources using local listings while safely docked? Add to that abusing alpha accounts and they don’t even have to pay for that knowledge. Nah I would prefer people play the game thanks.

So local is bad but more vague Intel is worse somehow?
Seriously step back and think.

Automated intel is bad. Whether it be in local or at a constellation level. Getting intel should be a matter of actually flying in space to gather it, not sitting comfy in station watching a chat list.

You are pointing at the difference between local being accurate intel and constellation chat being “slightly more vague” which I never said was worse, I said its the same problem. It doesn’t fix the core of the issue. That issue is that you can be sitting mining somewhere in null space and get pinged that someone is coming from 10-15 jumps away by robotic bots simply doing the intel gathering work for you. No one is playing those accounts, no one physically saw the person enter the gate and warp out, a bot did it all for them and that’s bad, its real bad. I’m sorry if you don’t agree with that but its how I feel and how a lot of others do too.

If you remove all Intel from channels then A. defenders are at a massive disadvantage because maps give them away. And B. people simply won’t ever find each other.
You need some level of Intel. If it is system then it’s too good for someone. If it is instant ok, the bot networks warn you too well. But you also will get a lot of false positives as well which means people who use bot networks like that for Intel will spend most of their time cowering, so it’s better.
If it’s delayed… it becomes unreliable even for that vs fast ships without giving too much Intel to the attacker. Not sure if you got the idea I was anti delayed somehow.

Defenders should be at a slight disadvantage, although we could also talk about how unreliable map data is because its cached seemingly at random but intel > no intel so ok you got me there. Again though, because of how sov works + having jump networks already setup I’m sorry but I won’t lose any sleep knowing that defenders are at a small intel disadvantage.

How do you figure this? Dscan, scan probes, plus the timer proposition only means a traveller won’t be seen by the people in system if they are passing through and stay in system for less than like 2 minutes or less depending on balance. Any system where someone stays still for any real length of time won’t be effected and even on my best day it takes me about 5 minutes on average to dscan someone specific down unless I get lucky. Thats assuming they are off dscan to begin with and I just happen to know they are in space at a celestial (I do dscan practice with friends and we time each other)

I don’t mean to come off condescending although I am certain that’s how this looks but I simply don’t agree with this point at all. It’s an online game in a single universe, people will find each other.

What you are saying here is simply unclear to me, can you explain further? You say you need some level of intel, people would still be able to get intel with dscan and networks of players actually playing the game. Before bots existed you know, that’s what we did. I should know, I was there. We all flew around in ships and reported enemy positions to warn people deeper in our space. And people cowering in their station from a threat 10 jumps away is better? No…that’s a lost opportunity for combat and the removal of risk from a game that should be all about taking risks. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you a lot here. If so please correct me.

…or are they?

Without local, we’ll never know…

Dun dun duuuuuuuun!!!

Sorry, it’s early and I’m feeling goofy…

:smiley:

While I do agree with you that tools like NEAR2 are powerful almost to the point of absurdity, they also rely on publicly available data and don’t interface with or manipulate the client, which means that CCP banning their use would be exceedingly difficult. I suspect that their only legal recourse would be to stop providing that data that such apps run on, which would obviously have much wider implications.

Intel seems to have been forgotten in EVE - IMO no part of information gathering works well.

Why not handle Intel a bit more seriously in EVE instead of tinkering with chat?

  • Build some capabilities into every ship (like scan for anyone who isn’t hiding, ask the local gate operator to share the public part of their info, advertise your presence in a system)
  • Modules for others (hide, find more than the public available info
  • Simple GUI to track what you know
  • etc

And of course don’t identify who’s chatting unless they’ve chosen to advertise their presence.