A Proposal to Fix EvE's Economy... and even the Blue Donut

Did you know that you can have 34057804570824454 gajillion isk in your wallet and it doesn’t do anything to “the economy” until that point in time you spend it - not before.

Have nothing to do with EVE!!!111111111111111111eleven

So lifeforms believe that it does and manipulate the market(s) with their 5 minute 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 isk increment bots all day.
They are wrong.

The “economy” of EVE is that you “trade” your time for someone eles time and both get what they desire.
One life form makes ships and gear and one other life form did run level 4 missions and acquired currency to give to the first life form.
They exchanged their play time for each others play time, nothing more.

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Bots point isking the market all day isn’t market manipulation. Real manipulation is finding a way to use everyone else and their bots to serve your own efforts.

Real success on the market is when you can sit back and wait while you let everyone else do most of the work for you.

Only market slaves trade their time on the market to do trading, winning in the market is getting payed to save your time instead.

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I’m not sure what most of this means. Yes, another inflation mechanism would be players buying PLEX from CCP for real-life money and then selling it on the EvE market for ISK. That ISK would be ‘printed out of thin air.’ But it would be backed by Petrol. So, the inflationary aspect would be mitigated just as much as if you had gotten that ISK from bounties.

As to the other stuff you spouted (less people having to buy the PLEX, less money in CCP’s pocket, blah blah), i’m not sure how any of that follows, or why any of it is true. Nothing I proposed would mean less money in CCP’s pocket.

Inflation is neither natural (except in a few special cases I could concoct), nor is it produced by supply and demand changes to deflate and inflate prices.

It seems you are again making a mistake that somehow the natural on-goings of the free market somehow generates inflation. It does not. Inflation has a very specific, technical definition: INFLATION OF THE MONEY SUPPLY. Granted, the word is grossly misused and misunderstood not only in popular culture, but by so-called financial journalists and ‘experts’ on venues like CNBC. But misused nonetheless.

It neither checks and balances itself, nor is it caused by these factors you list.

You finally identified a cause of inflation in the game. But still I don’t think you quite understand it. That cause you identified is not the primary cause or direct cause of inflation. The cause of inflation is printing ISK out of thin air. If that didn’t happen it wouldn’t matter how many botters were churning away. But since it does happen, yeah the botters matter. Either way, my proposal is designed to mitigate such inflation.

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Depends how you look at it. Inflation of PLEX I am referring to the increasing value of it which is actually caused by lack of money going into it from customers buying from CCP compared to the ISK generated by players used in game to buy PLEX.

It is only natural that if PLEX has a lower value it is less worth it for players to buy from CCP and more worth it to buy with ISK in game. Since the price goes up as there is always a strong demand for PLEX from the gaming community it just makes it more worth it to buy PLEX from CCP with money which in turn brings more PLEX into the game causing an increase in supply and competition to bring the price back down again.

The only problem with this cycle is it doesn’t account for the fact that there will always be more ISK generated in game by players (not from selling plex/inflation by CCP as you put it) but to actually buy PLEX with isk instead than there ever will be players buying PLEX from CCP to supply the market with more PLEX. The demand is always stronger than the supply so even as the price keeps climbing the players who keep buying PLEX from CCP can’t stop it from climbing and even if they bought enough PLEX at anytime that the price would go down you will just have trillionaires start buying it all up for themselves knowing it is only a temporary drop in price because of an overabundance of supply in the short term.

In this case inflation is beyond natural in eve, it is artificially fed both by multiboxing and/or botters and players looking to make a profit investing in buying PLEX with ISK.

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Isk is already backed by the most important commodity. Time.

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Wish I could like you twice for that. That’s a ■■■■■■■ high quality post if I ever saw one.

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Inflation is another form of the PvP ratrace. It is fine.

Well…you probably should, at least some, as the overall effect of PLEX on the game you play (and not in a vacuum, if you’ll pardon the pun) is fairly significant.

That’s not really something to be proud of, friend…

Directly? Fine, certainly. I personally advocate for players to do that rather than fall into the trap of making EvE a second job just so they can make EvE a second job the next month.
The problem is the surprisingly common thought that paying a subscription directly oneself is somehow morally superior to a player using PLEX for their game time and that players PLEXing their accounts are “freeloaders” and “parasites” not contributing to CCP/EvE.
The PLEX in the game is bought from CCP for real money because a demand for it is created by players wishing to use ingame money to exchange for game time…in that way CCP gets real money as a result of players PLEXing their account.
In fact, 30 days gametime of PLEX costs more real money than 30 days of subscription (and costs even more if one buys longer periods of subscription)…so CCP is of course actually getting a bit more real money from players PLEXing.

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The little I know about plex is I thought it is used for buying skins

That’s not really something to be proud of

I am so proud I am even proud about the things I don’t know. :thinking:

Good points thanks for the free education!

One thing you should understand (assuming you don’t understand it - it seems you don’t but I could be wrong) is that all PLEX in-game comes from CCP. A player must buy PLEX from CCP. That PLEX gets loaded into the game. The player can then choose to sell that PLEX on the market for ISK. But the point is, ALL PLEX IS ORIGINALLY BOUGHT FROM CCP.

True. This is why I proposed the PetroISK.

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Yes and CCP is ignoring those who pay for the plex in favour of those who buy it on the market, which means less people will buy plex and its price will continue to rise.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything I said. When I kill a rat and get paid a bounty, the ISK is created out of thin air. It is not created out of time. There is no commodity in the game called ‘time’ that is boxed up and exchanged for ISK. And the same process occurs with all the central banks of the world. They wave a pen, and create money out of thin air. The pen is indeed mightier than the sword.

It is also not self-regulating.

I don’t think there’s any debate that there has been massive increase in ISK supply over the years. There’s certainly been increase in the price of PLEX.

I didn’t say this happened in the 1930. This happened in the early 70s under Nixon. There are numerous sources I just consulted online, and they all say the same thing. I will quote one here:

<<When the United States stopped selling gold to foreign official holders of dollars at the rate of $35 an ounce in 1971, it brought the gold exchange standard to an end. In 1973, the United States officially ended its adherence to the gold standard.>>

I don’t see how there could be a flawed understanding of how money is created in game. It is one of the easiest things to understand that there is. There is nothing complicated or difficult about it at all. When a bounty is paid, the computer program (server) adds ISK to your account. The ISK is created “out of thin air” much the same as the Federal Reserve does it.

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Actually The US Fed is a private company, it creates nothing. That is the treasury that creates money out of thin air.

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We agree that the Fed is a private company. From what I understand, the Fed is the entity that creates the money out of thin air (basically it creates and issues it’s own private currency, and it has monopoly powers to do so), but for our purposes here it really matters little whether it’s the Fed or the Treasury or some other entity.

You are talking about the supply of money, this is done by offering more or less money on the overnight cash rate. So banks have more or less money to spend. That is the Fed.

Deciding to print/supply an extra Trillion for circulation and so weakening the existing currency is the Treasury.

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Fine. Again, it matters little for our purposes here whether it’s the Fed, the Treasury, or the ‘money fairy’ for that matter. The point is, whoever or whatever is creating the money, it’s being created out of ‘thin air.’

No. This is like saying if I go and pan for gold I’ve created it out of thin air. I spent time doing it and also incurred other costs. Time has value. Whatever you do with your time you had to give up something else–i.e. opportunity cost. This creates a situation of trade-offs. What do I get for my time, what other thing could I have done with my time. So there will be an equilibrium.

Now…fiat currency–i.e. real world money. That is pretty much created out of thin air. We all believe it has value because we believe it has value and we trust the government not to go full retard and print tons of it like Zimbabwe.

Yes. But that is true of everything in all economic situations. My actions have an effect on the market process. So do yours. So this isn’t a major problem per se.

Yes, inflation is bad. Yet shockingly it has not been a major problem. Look at the MERs and the CPI is has been pretty flat since about 2012.

IMO, if anything CCP ended the blackout because of deflation. You have the wrong end of this stick…

It sure is. Look at the MERs and the CPI. There was remarkably little inflation there since 2012.

Sure, but if there is a massive increase in the game’s real economy then it isn’t a problem in terms of inflation.

And so far for 2019 the ISK supply has actually shrunk…we are back at pre-2019 levels. A shrinking money supply and a economy that is growing or not shrinking means deflation which is also bad, maybe worse than some inflation.

See that decline starting in June 2019. That’s an “Oh ■■■■!” Moment.

Right, but those aren’t petro-dollars. A petro-dollar is when a US dollar is spent buying oil from an oil producing country.

Not until you spent the time killing the rats. Your time is valuable…in fact it is the most valuable resource you have.

If gold was the universal medium of exchange, and if some central entity had the ability to snap its fingers and create endless supplies of the stuff, yes, it would be the same thing. However, there are some differences in the real world.

In our world gold is a scarce resource. Yes, more of it is created ‘out of thin air’ by gold mining companies all the time. But there is a limited supply of gold on earth, and they can only create so much (and in fact they do only create ‘so much’). They can’t just snap their fingers and flood the earth with trillions of tons of it. Also, since gold isn’t some universal medium of exchange, the effects of ‘gold inflation’ are limited, although sure, you could construct a scenario where there are greater effects.

You also have to factor in that botters/multiboxers don’t typically pay for their subscriptions with real money but with PLEX they bought with ISK farmed in game, and they are buying more of it than anyone else.

Some of that PLEX even gets sold for real world money illegally, which together means not only are they not paying subscriptions but they are also recycling PLEX back into real money and all of this just leads to more and more PLEX being bought illegitimately in game, even less for real money from CCP because they will again instead be buying PLEX for a lower cost for real money through RMT that was bought back in game with ISK, further decreasing the profits from PLEX overall by those same players buying the PLEX they already sold but at a lower RMT cost instead of buying it from CCP directly and injecting more PLEX into the market that wasn’t already there and acquired illegally even if bought from legit players who purchased it from CCP.

You see, players do still buy enough PLEX to keep the PLEX market sustained, that much is for sure known, the gap in regular prices vs the new inflated ones was grown by those players who bought the supply of PLEX in game illegally rather than those who played and put their time and effort into it to be able to afford.

Thus diminishing the overabundance of PLEX that would remain in game until legit players could buy it at what would be a considerably lower cost then what it is worth now, by magnitudes even. You might say if it wasn’t for the growing gap of trillions of bot farmed ISK every month buying up excesses of PLEX over the past PLEX prices might still be what they we’re 3 or 4 years ago and less than half of what they sell for now because of a larger quantity of supply and people still selling them that which was not bought overtime by bots.

…Let me try to explain that differently:

imagine if the game had no botters and only the legit players bought PLEX with ISK they farmed in game, imagine how much more PLEX would be still on the market competing to be sold if we didn’t have thousands of accounts each month buying up that extra supply that would have kept prices down and supply abundant.

The dream of an average player actually being able to afford to PLEX their accounts would be within reach, but the reality is everyday the botters get closer and closer if not already outnumbering the actual players struggling to continue playing this game in a way where they will ever be able to afford to buy PLEX with ISK they earn in game when successfully and everyday another botter buys up a future stake of PLEX that a legit player could have bought for cheaper in the future.

At this point a legit player without a max skilled clone for PVE income has to at least be multiboxing to even come close to being able to afford PLEX with ISK…but what about in another 4 or 6 years when PLEX prices double again or go even higher…can the game even sustain like that? I know everyone will buy more PLEX from CCP for sure but who the hell is buying it in game other than bots at 7-8 billion or even as much as 10 billion ISK for 500 PLEX in the future.

All this just leads to less PLEX used by players and more of it being bought and used and sold in the future buy bots at a profit to them and a loss to players and the decimation of the stability of the PLEX market long term.

It is so god damn convoluted to even explain but it is definitely having an effect the end result with which being PLEX prices will always soar with the growing gap of exploitation in game.

The only reason PLEX prices ever really drop for sure temporarily is probably because of the thousands bots accounts that get banned in the different waves of activity from CCP security that is a 24/7 full time job, a never ending process of bots getting banned then forced to buy back into the game whatever way they need to

$ from RMT profits for PLEX from CCP,

ISK for PLEX from other Players (on the market the regular way),

$ for ISK from RMT,

Then bang boom and they are back in business after replacing another account as a cost of doing business when they get banned again.

They aren’t going away, this is literally a job to them that costs revolve around replacing banned bot accounts with previously made profits.

Banning them is just an inconvenience, like not being able to work on the weekend would as a robot.