How is inviting you to a discussion âduckingâ the discussion?
Why do I have to provide the stats when you made the clai- you know what, Iâm not even going to bother. Nice trolling, take care. o/
Okay, but Iâm not talking about bottlenecks. Decoupling is something different. Let me give you an example:
Battery A uses a steel casing and lithium-ions. My frypan is made out of steel and ceramic. The cost of Battery A and the price of my frypan are decoupled: The price of Battery A can go up without affecting the price of frypans - if lithium increases in value. If the price of steel goes up - both products become more expensive. Get it? Now if Battery A used an aluminum case, Battery A and my frypan would be completely decoupled.
Well you see when CCP introduces sweeping changes to the entire ship production system, a claim that the discussion should only be about a small subset of those changes is quite silly.
So by your own example, Avatars and Rifters are not decoupled. Both still require t1 minerals. Youâre so deep into the knob gobbling you canât even follow your own arguments.
Now, itâs true that T1 BCs and below (not faction) have been slightly decoupled from the rest of the ships, but theyâve added a coupling on all faction ships and T1 BSs to capitals/supercapitals. And T2 are also going to be coupled with those, if we follow the example of the exhumers.
So, if the intent was to decouple, itâs failed.
No, you simply misunderstood. Right now Rifters and Avatars are coupled because they require all the same inputs: minerals from asteroids. After the change, they will be decoupled, because Avatars will require material inputs that Rifters do not. Perhaps I wasnât clear enough, my apologies.
@Arrendis I found what you were talking about earlier. It was CCP Soundwave and CCP Ytterbium making the statements:
âLet us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change.â
âIf you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today.â
I canât find any statement from CCP along the lines of âif you could do it before, you can still do itâ. All such quotes Iâve been able to find are regarding flying hulls.
No, because the point of entry is âPlanetary Interactionâ. It doesnât matter how many different profitable PI chains there are, itâs still one activity. One point of entry.
No, theyâre not lower. Heck, if youâre looking at expanded PI chains as a new avenue of entry, youâre looking at expansion of one of the worst impedimentsâthe amount of time needed to get started in PI, and the sheer boredom of running it, afterwards.
Ok, either thatâs being deliberately obtuse, or you misunderstood what I meant there. Iâll assume the latter, and thatâs on me for unclear phrasing. I was not saying that theyâll have to run their own planets in order to improve their profit margins. I was saying that the profit margins only start to really provide a decent ROI once you start getting into the product lines that require PI.
A large number of industrialists prefer to run their own PI chains, so they know they have steady supply on one of the inputs that, precisely because of just how bad the PI system is, isnât exactly burning up the âI WANT TO DO THAT!!â charts. So theyâll need more alts, just to tread water.
Which doesnât provide additional points of entry. Weâre not talking about a situation like RL, where the player canât relocate easily. Heck, they can just put an alt or two in the systems theyâre doing PI in. Getting to the systems with the right planets isnât a barrier to entry, thus, making more systems profitable doesnât provide more access points. The barrier to entry on PI is⌠the mechanics of Planetary Interaction⌠which havenât changed since Hilmar forced them to streamline things from 300 clicks to 180.
You are in a very small subset of the industrial subset of the game. Seriously. the PI system is pretty universally reviled, especially by newer players. Itâs not intuitive, itâs needlessly complicated, and itâs easy to completely screw things up and not know it until you come back a week or a month later and find nothing done, and there were no warnings given at all. Itâs bad.
No, Iâm making the point that what youâre calling âmore points of entryâ arenât actual points of entry. Theyâre just more window-dressing, because the barrier to entry is the mechanics, not the lack of viable varieties. If the lack of viable varieties is not a barrier to entry, then increasing the number of viable varieties does not remove barriers to entry / increase points of entry.
Except it doesnât, because the Rifter and the Avatar didnât actually impact one another. I can still express the cost of an Avatar in Rifters, all I have to do is find the common input: player time. The fact that they had the same mineral types needed doesnât mean that they impacted one another. The stockpiles of minerals were just too large for supply-side issues at the mineral level to be a real consideration.
I could say thatâs moving the goalposts, since you were comparing âa Rifter and an Avatarâ, yâknow.
You specifically said âIf itâs easier for new players to build things - in particularly the things they can flyâ, and then immediately had the guy in the Mining Frigate (which takes Mining Frigates) building Rifters (which takes another skill entirely).
That limited subset of industrial activity is, yes. But again, youâre the one staying focused on a very small part of industry while throwing around accusations of myopia. The broader pattern matters, especially when youâre talking about retaining players over the long term.
In fact, CCPâs approach to design has been to assume that all newbies are alphas. Thatâs why the push so hard for the PLEX sales etc to ânewâ players to âGo Omega!â Theyâre designing with the intention that newbies are alphas, and they want to upsell them into becoming paying customers. If thatâs the design philosophy, thatâs the structure you have to evaluate on in order to evaluate how well it will achieve what they intend.
Repeatedly, but you seem to prefer willful ignorance and denial.
Which I havenât done. If you attempt to refute a statement of mine by arguing about something completely different, me ignoring the completely unrelated attempted distraction isnât âglossing overâ what youâve said, itâs staying on topic and refusing to engage the derailment.
You are, again, a tiny minority inside a tiny minority, according to CCPâs own statements when they redid PI several years agoâand even then, admitted it needed a lot more work⌠which has not been done, at all.
Except again, no. Iâm saying that while the initial, very first steps may have been streamlined, the long-term picture has only become more complicated. The majority of industrialist players do not content themselves with âI will build frigates for all of timeâ. They have ambitions, and they make plans. Focusing on âthis one part of thingsâ isnât ânuanceâ. Itâs just trying to narrow the scope of the discussion to a point that suits your specific agenda, but not necessarily that of the average industrialist in EVE.
Yeah, it very much is, because thatâs who CCP is still asking to give them money.
That ended 3 months after it started, when the BlackOut crashed activity numbers, CCP scrambled to try to make everyone forget how badly they sabotaged their own game, and at least one extremely zealous CCP proponent of the BlackOut suddenly ended up no longer with company.
please just stop⌠%99 percent of pilots here actually not agree with him⌠people are angry and sad⌠resentfull⌠He is here to supress anyone who come with opposite ideas and he will not stop⌠its enough to understand just look at his other postsâŚ
What i have observed in EvE Online forums ⌠there is always 2-3 people like him comes up⌠and just be loud and try to supress anyone⌠let the forum flood itself⌠people will not fallow him⌠noone does⌠let him talk to himself⌠and adore his own ideas and keep clapping CCP himself while everyone not agreeâŚ
Our opinions pretty much worthles⌠i had seen this so many timesâŚ
I had work like 15 years ⌠in a very big city⌠had been leading the crise teams⌠one day⌠there is a new municipality leader assigned to city⌠and thay man made a meeting with all cities crise interference teamsâŚ
He told something: " you will listen citizennsss !! you will listen themmm let them talk and write ⌠and you will take the gass from them ( chicken translation from turkish ⌠means⌠when people talk and complain and write those things⌠that takes the inner preassure out⌠and that also prevent them to turn into action⌠so its way of pasifise and neutralise things⌠Now those people who put their anger into words actually CCP taking the gas out⌠)
they he said⌠you will give them a gas⌠( this gas means you will just tell things like we are doing this for the future for your kids future ect ect⌠this is for your own behalf ⌠doesnt seem so may be atm but will be good for you⌠)
that was the day i just resigned from everything⌠Because i knew what has been comingâŚ
@Arrendis Iâm in awe at your patience and your ability to stay focused on the topic. Your posts are GOLD. Thank you for posting on this forum. It certainly doesnât deserve you.
so, about PI. the mind numbing , carpal tunnel inducing part of the game that keeps getting attached to industrial work. The big change to PI a couple of years back was to (in theory) make it less tedious. it did, in fact, reduce over 160 clicks during planet setup. There are still many aspects that just suck the life out of doing PI that should be changed before they make it essential to yet another series of blueprints.
example : extractor resets without having to select the head, stop , start , submit. just a simple restart button.
speaking of submit function, why is it clear across the screen from the start stop button>?
Access planet button only appears when you are next to the planet instead of at undock, you only need to be undocked to interact with the POCO. so in addition to the warp to button there should be an access button.
and regardless where you stand on the entry level discussion. if a builder wants to be self sufficient and wasnt doing PI before, it is yet another set of skills to buy (insert isk sink here) and train into.
Great! another level of BS to go through just to build a ship, not that there is already levels of BS and running around the Galaxy to do already, now they want to add more⌠wtf
Right on. I started calculating the time between having to travel and actual play time. Itâs unreal. Itâs like 3/4 travelling vs 1/4 doing something that Iâd call playing. And they want us to have to do more running around ( probably to please the gate campers and run-of-the-mill gankers ) well, no. Not going to do that. Just going to log in, get the SP and get skills trained then itâs back to a movie or another game.
But thereâs more than just PI, right? Thereâs also ice, moon mining, reactions, gas harvesting, etc. What youâre doing here is zeroâing in on one thing, to the exclusion of all the others, with the purpose of muddling the discussion up and shifting goalposts/definitions about regarding what a âpoint of entryâ is, and later in the discussion you try to conflate a different sort of barrier to gameplay (ie whether players will enjoy the activity). Stop that.
X got simpler and more streamlined, and easier to jump into. Y got harder and more complicated: but it creates more opportunities for players to get involved. This⌠hasnât changed because of our argument or your nitpicking my analogies.
PI only applies to large ship production. Once again youâre tunnel visioning on Y to the exclusion of X, when the case is X and Y.
Once again this is opinion and preference. A point of entry is a point of entry regardless of how boring you find it.
Yeah see, I just see opportunity here. âX kinda sucks and no one wants to do it, but thereâs a fair bit of ISK to be made? Iâll do X.â But thatâs still player agency, right? Perhaps the way PI works can be changed to make it less daunting for you, but thatâs actually a separate discussion.
You really zeroâd in on PI and ran with it, huh? Is this a âtrying to win a discussion by proxy of only 1 minor pointâ thing?
I never said it was. I was just pointing out a positive side effect.
Sure, fine, whatever. This is, again, well besides the point and going deep into the weeds now. Letâs bring it back to what weâre actually talking about (unless you want to start a new discussion about PI mechanics, Iâd be more than happy to). I donât find this nitpicking about, PI in particular and whether or not players like setting it up specifically very compelling. I donât find this to be one of your stronger points in this discussion and we both know you can do better than that.
Uh, you were saying that the new changes lock players out of industry⌠I was explaining how it gives them more options to participate in industry. Where did we start talking about different things here? I was never talking about the specific mechanics of PI or X activity.
Youâre going meta and talking about whether players will like doing X or Y based on your appraisal of the specific mechanics. This is what we call âyeah butâ-ing. Iâm just talking about the changes to industry as such. The specific mechanics of activity X or Y is a different discussion.
I never said they did. I feel like youâre not even listening to me.
Okay let me see if I can make this easier to understand: Rifter uses Zydrine. Titan uses Zydrine. In an effort to increase the cost of titans, CCP makes Zydrine exceedingly rare. Now Rifters are more expensive. Because theyâre coupled.
But now, because titans use materials that Rifters donât, theyâre decoupled: CCP can increase or decrease the cost of a titan without directly impacting the price of a Rifter.
Which would be haggling over the analogy rather than the point being made.
And? Newbies/alphas can fly both.
But I can do the same thing, right? I can say that what youâre talking about is âa limited subset of industrial activityâ.
Really? Because this entire discussion I have acknowledge the increased complexity of building battleships and above.
Do you have a Devblog on that?
Projection. Thatâs actually what youâre doing when you nitpick about PI being a pain to set up.
Iâm not focused on either sub-BS production nor BS and above. Iâm looking at entirety of the changes. Youâre focused on the complexity of building larger ships. Iâm saying X and Y. Youâre saying just oneâŚ
I donât really have an âagendaâ. I roll with the punches and look for the opportunities that present themselves. Perhaps youâre projecting?
Anyway, this has been an engaging discussion but you seem to be steering into bad faith waters. Whatâs up with that?
You could but youâd be wrongâŚnon-faction BC and below T1 ship production is the far smaller of the activity set. I showed you the data and you, somewhat conveniently, decided to ignore that.
Arrendis, hasta la pasta and take care. EVE needs more players like you and Iâll be watching closely to see if the stream actually picks up your questions. You got the most votes so there is no excuse.
This whole blog post reads like CCP accidentally let their lawyers get to the computer with all of the bloody legaleze talk and the lack of simple english, for example;
Normalize the value proposition between different activities in EVE
What the bloody hell is this supposed to mean?
The path for aspiring builders in New Eden will be clearer than ever
Everything Iâve read makes it very clear that industry will become even more of a chore than ever. What does make me angry is this half truth in the blog saying new component requirements for battleships and up, and conveniently forgetting to mention that so many other ships are going to need these components as well.
At this point in time itâs becoming more and more clear that CCP is intentionally making everything in-game that involves making isk more tedious and annoying than ever, producing the side-effect of increasing the cost of modules and ships, while at the same time still trying to force players into a more migratory playstyle and throwing the middle finger at everyone who had been told for the past decade of the importance and safety in locking down a little piece of space to call your own. Itâs all Iâve seen from these updates, and if CCP truly thinks all of this will somehow create more conflict, they know absolutely nothing about the gameâs own history. Thereâs that little phenomenon known as the âblue donutâ that resulted from similar attempts in the past.
I had allowed my subscription to expire and thus far I havenât seen anything in these updates to convince me to renew my subscription or exchange any of my hard-earned income for ingame rewards. I have many other games I enjoy that I will go play.
How exactly did it become easier to get into industry? Can you elaborate? And why would anyone with a valnut of brain start building anything after they done with carrer arcs? As such a simple thing as checking material prices against product prices will disencourage anyone from getting into industry.
Just the fact that 0/0 BPO/BPCs will never have a positive return on the ISK side is enough and you need to take to 3. party websites with skill calculators/blueprint calculators to even have the slightest clue if you can make money doing industry is another huge deterrent.
Player set prices or not, no one will ever catch up or grab a piece of the market from the 15 years in industry/trading giants. Let alone new players.
Iâm in awe at your patience and your ability to stay focused on the topic. Your posts are GOLD. Thank you for posting on this forum. It certainly doesnât deserve you.