But this isn’t happening. Blanket War Deecs do not cut supply lines. They are just a means to farm idiots. This has nothing to do with warfare, just with killboard padding.
I don’t get your example. You would still be allowed to declare as many wars as you like. You just need to do something to “win” them or pay more. If you can’t get a hold of a corp, it’s a bad target or you already just won.
And if such a collective has structures, target those first.
Except there isn’t so much hunting, more waiting. Yes, exceptions… I know. They are fine. Hunting is good and what we want.
Declare war on me, stalk me, ambush me, kill me - bring friends, just do anything except standing in front of Jita 4-4 and hoping that I forget having a so called war.
Why should I? You said that you want “to kick my ass”, come and try or shut the ■■■■ up and bully someone you can. This would be like The Judge sending Gigx his address and a flight ticket
But seriously, let’s assume I have a fleet that is capable of fighting and winning against you. Why should I bring it? You will either dock up (seen this plenty), we will play stupid station games (I really don’t like those) or I will find myself confronted with a horde of neutral logis or ping warriors or some other significant home field advantage you might have - there is basically only a very small chance of me not wasting my time (or throwing away assets) and
all for the cost of not doing what I’s rather be doing.
They are cutting supply lines. The ones that die are never having their goods make it too / from the market. Sure it looks like farming in a sense but its about setting up in places that make sense in order to put a hurting on people doing trade. I don’t know how else to explain it to you because it is what it is. If you refuse to see this then you are trying not to.
People that run missions and do incursions do so in an NPC corp so they can take advantage of lower or zero taxes. These people are well-known to fold corps at the first sign of a wardec. I don’t consider these players to be bad targets. Everyone in a player corp is a valid target for wardecs. The reason for the war could be a myriad of things that you probably don’t agree with. The mission runner that pops off in local gets a dec for no reason other than being mouthy.
Like you said, there are exceptions and hunting does happen. It’s a wardec that someone has paid 50m - 500m ISK for, and I think it’s reasonable to allow that person to perform however they want with the ISK they spend. The lack of hunting is directly related to the lack of watchlist and the need to revamp locator agents. Don’t believe me? Try chasing ghosts yourself… or you can ask Lord Raz of Devils Warrior Alliance his opinion. He ran an alliance that never had more than 10-15 wars and was extremely focused in the way they dec’d and hunted. Watchlist nerf came and instantly they were chasing ghosts, always behind the target by 5 minutes not knowing if they were chasing someone who had logged.
If you successfully bring a fight and constantly kick in the teeth of these mercs, then they will realize you aren’t worth dec’ing because the content results in them losing everytime.
This is irrelevant and doesn’t make sense.
I can’t speak for every group, but a lot of times there’s more than one group out and about that we know is baiting us into a fight. Can’t blame someone for not taking a fight that they know they can’t win just based off of numbers. So when you show your whole hand and parade your whole fleet through Urlen > Perimeter > Jita and expect to get some kind of face off, you’re just being an idiot.
Treat the war like guerrilla warfare and you will end up more successful… Popping in and out of wormholes, log-off traps, and other nifty tricks that you can find out for yourself work wonderfuly to get a fight on your terms.
If you’re trying to attack or kill someone station games are you aren’t setup to just blap them in a 60 second timer, then you’re just wasting your time and you’ve done it wrong. Why am I having to think critically for you and tell you how to fight? Be creative and do the work yourself. Neutral logi are really only an advantage unless the system is otherwise empty and are instant targets for anyone and everyone. Sure they can pretty much get a guaranteed cycle or two, but after that… they are defenseless ships that are capable of being shot at by everyone right there. If you or others are too scared or unwilling to clear neutral logi, then thats on you.
Again I find myself having to explain things to you like I would a child… If you suspect or know that a group uses suspect logi and you want to fight them, maybe you could gather some intel and watch these people operate for a while and mark who is neutral logi. You can easily overcome their neutral logi in numerous ways. Yes people that wardec are generally setup fairly well for success. They had tools and alts that most people do not, and they generally know how to use them well. Nothing wrong with this.
You see this is the problem. It’s not a problem that you have things in eve that you enjoy, but in eve you should have to fight for that right. Wars can be highly invasive in that they can prevent you from doing things you want, unless you take steps to ensure your safety or success.
I want you to get to some fundamental issues with eve. Right now all you’re doing is making excuses as to why you can’t win a fight or even throw a punch at them. Talk to me about the perceived issues of the aggressors risk vs reward and other catch phrases that you guys like to collectively moan about. I won’t be your strategic adviser for free…
Who cares? Really why do you care? Do you care about what your neighbors are doing in the evening? Do you care about where the person next to you is going when you drive to work? Why do you care what people do in a sandbox game? I don’t care if a person just wants to mine all the time when he logs in. I don’t understand why he’d want to, but hey…it’s a sandbox so do what you want. More power to ya.
Why is that these discussions usually devolve into: “Well he has to do it for a good reason based on MY personal preferences?”
So, some people want to use war decs for casual PvP and farming kills? Nobody, except maybe Devs, should care. If you don’t care why somebody just wants to run missions you shouldn’t care about the motivations of war deccers.
And it doesn’t make sense to you. Fine. Not your problem. It makes sense to them and that is sufficient. Stop worrying about how others are sand boxing.
Why shouldn’t I believe you. It’s basically half of the suggestion I wrote up there and a mandatory precondition for any meaningful and directed warfare.
Unless I would be in a High Sec PvP corp, they would never be really my terms. We would still be fighting in your front yard, with you having the advantage in reinforcements, ship replacement, reshipping and routine.
No, you don’t. I know how this works. The point is, I don’t want to fight you, I don’t even care about you at all.
It would take far more effort for me than for you to make a fight happen, that you can more easily control or avoid than me. Why should I even try?
You declared war on me, so you wanted to fight me, come on and bring it. The fact that you don’t, is already proof that you don’t really want to fight me, you are just looking for easy kills.
Sure, make me. But that’s the problem. You don’t. You declare war and wait for me to forget about it.
Unless i operate two jumps away from Jita (which I personally don’t), there is no reason why I should do all the stuff needed to fight you, I can just stay “home” and do what I want to do.
If declaring a war would actually resulting in all those things you are claiming, I wouldn’t be in this conversation, because I wouldn’t see a problem.
Who are “we”?
Of course it’s my problem and yours and the one of every other player. It’s a shitty mechanic providing shallow gameplay. Not the kind you need to keep your players motivated long term.
When CCP killed a good part of the “merc business” and meaningful, targeted warfare with the watchlist change (as Faylee Freir mentioned) another, formerly interesting and exciting area of Eve went to ■■■■. We all should have a serious interest in having this fixed (alongside SOV, WH capital warfare, FW, bounties and many other things).
You sure the fight can be on your terms. I’m not going to think for you. Smaller groups challenge larger groups like VMG all the time and do well. There’s a ship called the Bowhead. It can keep fitting ships in there for you. You can even seed a citadel in Peru or a Station in Jita with ships if you were tactically inclined.
I declared war on you because I wanted to declare war on you. You don’t get to pick and choose how good my reasons are and if they’re valid or honorable.
I’ve never fought you, but if you say you’re and easy kill I’ll believe you.
For someone that talks about being uneffected by wars, you sure do have a problem with getting a wardec. If you don’t want wardecs maybe you should show yourself to be a dominant figure that isn’t worth the losses against? Just thinking out loud here. [quote=“CowQueen_MMXII, post:256, topic:15535”]
Who are “we”?
[/quote]
Confused. I didn’t use the word “we”.
I can see how the weak, lazy, and/or unprepared would think that. The fact is that wars are exciting if you are anything other than the words I described.
I think missions are a shitty thing and provide shallow game play. You don’t see me running around making a huge fuss. Lots of people like them. Fine…leave them. If that is how some people want to sand box fine by me.
Yes, but again that is not the problem nor fault of those who still use the war dec mechanic.
There have been attempts to fix those things many times and oddly they always seem to end up with somebody complaining about them…and it is not particular to one side or the other. The idea that there is a way to do war decs where nobody complains is a pipe dream.
Personally, I’d like to see a way to targeted war decs. Maybe with the observatory array in HS. This might reduce some of the blanket war deccing. However, that is not a given. CCP put us in this scenario and trying to undo it will be tricky without resorting to simply eliminating it which is anti-thetical to the notion of a sand box and probably not good for PCU numbers.
Keep in mind that EVE is a complex adaptive system. As such, linear extrapolation is going to almost surely fail.
It’s not about what I could do. It’s about why I should do it. I’m not the aggressor, I don’t have interest in this. For me this and your wardec is just an annoyance and there is absolutely no reason to do more than the necessary minimum to get rid of it.
This is another point you haven’t understood yet. I don’t care for your reasons at all. The only requirement I have is that you chose your targets specifically and follow up with actions (and to be clear: drawing a name out of a hat is not specific and standing around and watching local not eally an action).
I don’t have a problem with getting a wardec, I have a problem with the mechanic behind war decs not allowing meaningful game play.
“We” are the “you” you are addressing here:
I’d like to know who and what this group that I’m part of is supposed to be. You’re probably not talking about the group of “war dec complainers”.
Everyone can be an easy kill, just depends on the situation. Nice way to pull things out of context, though
Now you are making fun again.
Standing around (lazy) in their safety zone ready to dock up if real opposition shows up (weak, but at least prepared).
You are not worth the effort and the easiest way is to just work around you and use neutral logistics and travel in packs if needed.
You simply are lesser content for more initial work, again I have to ask: why should I bother? There is no point, you just pulled my name out of a hat and won’t show up on my doorstep anyway.
I posted my opinion regarding war decs in a opinion about war decs thread, nothing more, nothing less.
You won’t be able to change anything without somebody complaining. This doesn’t make changing things wrong, this also doesn’t make any change somebody is complaining about wrong - even if the complaints are somehow justified.
Doesn’t mean we should argue for “better” gameplay.
Currently, it’s hard to do any prediction on changes and their effect on PCU numbers.
It would be nice to see that the more interesting and meaningful game play also attracts more players.
On the other hand, the culture within the game seems to have shifted quite a lot in the last few years: more towards easy, instant action (no need to be online all day, just wait for the ping or timer) and away from needing a purpose and context (like in public fleets or arranged fights).
There is also always the possibility of giving new options first. Rework the locator agents and see what happens.
Yes. It’s my wardec. I can do with it as I please. If the thought of me coming after you keeps a target docked up and scared, then that’s one method of being effective. Why is it so annoying to you?
I don’t care for your reasons or feelings either.
You keep repeating the same point over and over. I don’t think it matters very much if my intentions of war are either a good fight or to scare you into staying docked with no intention of coming after you. Why does it matter? If you or others have no intention in participating in the war, then what does it matter what my intentions are? You are an unwilling participant that is complaining that I don’t hunt you, and are inconvenienced at the thought that if you came to a market hub that you’d die. Is that accurate?
You are lacking in creativity and critical thinking and blaming those shortcomings on another choice of play style. Make excuses all you want, but you are simply wrong. I don’t claim that wars are perfect or couldn’t need some tweaking, but the premise that others should get to dictate why I wardec or what my objectives should be are silly.
The thing is it isn’t just that some people are unhappy, it is that there is lots of complaining going on. I don’t think that war decs can be “fixed” so that both sides are reasonably happy. There is no room for such a discussion. Think of it this way, the solution set for war decs where both the war deccers and the decced are happy is most likely the empty set.
Now given how easy it is to avoid war decs I would say we just leave well enough alone and if we do anything a method is found to re-introduce targeted war decs again.
All this talk of “realistic”, “the real world”, etc. is largely ■■■■■■■■ meant to hide an ulterior motive.
I fully agree. A lot of these players just want to be left alone to play their own version of the game. Wars interfere with that and in a lot of cases prevent them from doing what they want.
I don’t see it as a big issue because I know what I would do if so was a member or CEO of a small industrial corp in highsec. I don’t expect everyone to think or play like that though. I accept that some people only serve to seed minerals and ships into the game, and complain that they are at the bottom of the food chain. ️
Your intentions of war should be war, nothing else. Doesn’t matter how it looks like. Picking random targets and waiting in Jita
And still, this is not the point. You can have any reason you like and do whatever you want. My suggestion wouldn’t change anything regarding that.
The only thing you couldn’t do anymore (at the same price) is keep mass deccing random corps without taking any action. You would just need to put a little more effort in target selection.
I do agree with you here. Doesn’t mean there’s much room for improvement.
At the very least, it should be possible to pursue targets effectively and somehow efficiently, making wars against specific corps and their members a viable option - without extensive prior information about those corps and mainly using in-game tools.
This isn’t really the case anymore. Not due to the changes to the war system, but due to eliminating the watch list without giving any viable alternative.
Mercenary work has the characteristic of being targeted at someone specific (at least in the majority of cases) and getting paid for it. While this is still possible under some circumstances (like structure defense or removal), in many other it got much harder, to the point that this is rarely happening anymore.
The opposite has happened. War targets are randomly chosen, “fighting” mostly manifests as ganks in the usual places. Being a random target and shooting random targets is almost always less engaging than making it personal.
Without the danger of actually being pursued, evading the attacker became much easier, reducing the need for fighting back or any other active countermeasures, again resulting in less engaging game-play.
I am assuming that more engaging game-play is more fulfilling and ultimately more “fun”.
That’s not the point. I don’t have a problem with being war decced, I have a problem with war decs (not always, but too often) being generic and pointless in regards of “war” and “mercenary work”.
She is wrong in wanting to artificially limit the reasons people should declare war.
I would welcome changes to wardecs too, but not with some stupid constraint that it must be to “wage war”. That’s not a constraint CCP has ever designed the mechanics for. Their purpose is to allow legal fighting in highsec. What people do with the mechanics beyond that is up to every individual Corp as it should be; and there’s nothing wrong with the choice any Corp makes, whether it’s to mass dec Corps in order to generate content opportunities for their Corp, or to take revenge, or whatever. They are all fine choices.
However, this is now likely to go off on some stupid tangent, because Salvos. So go read the devblog.
The problem with this whole response is it seems a bit double sided. One one side… you’re essentially saying “suck it up buttercup” to those being wardecc’d… which is fine. But at the same time something that brings MORE conflict (by making the aggressor go suspect when they attack a war target… allowing them to be targeted by whoever)… the response seems to be more along the line of “but the wardeccers shouldn’t have to deal with random people… that makes it too hard for them.”
Can’t I reasonably say “suck it up buttercup” right back to them? As you know… New Eden is a harsh environment that the developers have created for us to play in. There is real loss… and shouldn’t that fear of loss that makes the same so great also apply to those who are declaring wars against soft targets… as well as those who ARE the soft targets?
The entire suggestion isn’t about protecting carebears. It’s about adding risk to those attacking carebears as well as to the carebears themselves. For the industrial corp it changes their life very little. For the wardeccer… it adds fear to them as they run their hi-sec gatecamps to trap war targets. Is that nightmare going to go run a mission or stop and attack them? That uncertainty is the spice to the game… and right now they don’t feel any of that themselves.
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