About wardeckers in High Sec and solution

[Teckos_Pech]

@Bjorn_Tyrson

The wardec corp put the same kind of effort in to create their group. Why can’t you do the same?

That is just preposterous!

[Lena_Crews]

@Bjorn_Tyrson

@Lena_Crews

And all I’m saying is that if you’re the type of person who thinks it’s fine to go around and shoot people’s faces that you don’t like… a good samaritan should be able to step and and beat the crap out of you in response… and not have to bribe concord with another wardec to do so.

You do realize of course that you can join defensive wars, at any time, for free right?

If you want to be a good Samaritan and fight against the evil wardeccers then do it. Create a corp dedicated to doing just that. Recruit like-minded individuals. And offer your defensive services to any corps that are getting wardeced.

The wardec corp put the same kind of effort in to create their group. Why can’t you do the same?

Yes. I see someone being mugged.

“Excuse me sir, I’d like to help you out. Where is your boss so I can submit an alliance offer? Oh, he’s asleep now and will be available in 3 hours. Okay. Let me wait until he’s available.”

Meanwhile… the guy is unconscious with the mugger having run off with his money and jewelry. That works.

[Bjorn_Tyrson]

yes, it does, because eve is about the long game, not the short term. he got himself mugged and there wasn’t anything you can do about it, that sucks for you and for him… but in 3 hours you can join the war and exact hot screaming vengeance… or at least attempt it.

[yellow_parasol]

to kick some ass?

[yellow_parasol]

@Muffinmixer

Let the high-sec clown mercs have fun feeling like hot stuff while the real men do their business in low/null.

Signed,
He Who Has No Life.

[Toxic_Yaken]

Please do.

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

I look forward to seeing “Hello there OP” becoming a regular thing again.

Also… dat hair.

[Faylee_Freir]

Can any of you identify a fundamental problem with wardecs and why they either need to be changed or don’t belong in Eve Online? I’m just curious what the actual issues boil down to so that we can once and for all come to a conclusion.

I dare you to come up with a list and some actual supporting evidence, and I promise to rip your argument to shreds. It all just boils down to a few simple things really… and I’ll share them as soon as we have our first champion step to the plate.

[Lena_Crews]

@Faylee_Freir

Can any of you identify a fundamental problem with wardecs and why they either need to be changed or don’t belong in Eve Online? I’m just curious what the actual issues boil down to so that we can once and for all come to a conclusion.

I dare you to come up with a list and some actual supporting evidence, and I promise to rip your argument to shreds. It all just boils down to a few simple things really… and I’ll share them as soon as we have our first champion step to the plate.

I don’t think there’s a fundamental problem. I do think based on the way the majority of wardecs are used, the attacking corp is a little light on consequences. A large quantity of declarations seem to be from “professional” wardec corps on non-combat corporations to generate targets for high-sec camps.

The only change I’d like is when the attacking corp attacks a war-target without being attacked first, they should get a suspect timer.

This effectively lets the random passer-by jump on the war-dec corporation and come to the defense of a unwilling war target without having to join the war as an ally… essentially the good samaritan preventing a mugging.

Since this is based on my opinion (not enough negative consequence to a high-sec non-mutual war), I don’t have evidence… because it’s impossible to prove there’s not enough or too much downside to a war declaration.

[Faylee_Freir]

@Lena_Crews

I don’t think there’s a fundamental problem. I do think based on the way the majority of wardecs are used, the attacking corp is a little light on consequences. A large quantity of declarations seem to be from “professional” wardec corps on non-combat corporations to generate targets for high-sec camps.

Wars are a mechanic that is used to introduce conflict and risk into the game. The mechanics in Highsec are different than those in Nullsec, Lowsec, and Wormholes. The fact is that without wars Highsec would be an area of space with very little actual risk. If Highsec didn’t have risk then you would see many more players from low and null just sending their alts to highsec to easily farm isk in a risk free manner whenever they felt their pockets a little light.

@Lena_Crews

The only change I’d like is when the attacking corp attacks a war-target without being attacked first, they should get a suspect timer.

This effectively lets the random passer-by jump on the war-dec corporation and come to the defense of a unwilling war target without having to join the war as an ally… essentially the good samaritan preventing a mugging.

I don’t think it’s right that mechanics would discourage natural conflict from taking place. It doesn’t make much sense to have to go suspect in order to legally attack a war target. If a “Good Samaritan” wants to jump in and aid the defending side they are more than welcome to ante up and send an assist in to the defenders. They are also able to assist by going suspect themselves for various reasons or purposes.

You use the word unwilling and I’m going to try and be respectful here, but a dose of harshness is required. Please try not to take offense… being in a player corp is a right or priveledge. You obtain certain perks for being in a player corp vs an NPC corp, which are immune to wardecs. When you join a player corp you are opening yourself up to be more vulnerable to other players through the wardec system. It is in any and all players best interest to protect themselves at any time, and that can be done in many ways.

The main thing is that New Eden is a harsh environment that the developers have created for us to play in. There is real loss in the sense that you can grind and farm and collect all the assets, ISK, and resources you want only to have it stolen or blown up by another player. That’s the hook… that is what makes this game so great, because it’s one of the only games where losing something actually has meaning. It’s been very easy for me to snap into a mode where I am spiteful and wanting to troll posts like yours because I know that the ideas you propose go against the very reasons I started playing this game.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and letting me answer. If you have more questions or something to add on your idea, go ahead and I will reply. You mentioned the attackers having a lack of consequences or risk. If you want to elaborate more on why you think that is so, we can attempt to address that.

[Jonah_Gravenstein]

As Faylee has said wardecs are part and parcel of being in a player corp; furthermore they’re trivial to get around, the leadership of a corp that is the target of a wardec has many options open to them in order to do so.

Poor leadership when hit by a wardec is what kills corps in my opinion, even more so when the corp is basically a newbie farm as it deters people from staying; a leader who cannot lead is about as much use as a chocolate teapot and may be doing considerable harm.

[Aaron]

I can see it clearly now, too many people get caught up in what they can’t do rather than what they can.

Look, it really is no problem to leave the corp mechanic of this game for a period of time. Go to an NPC corp and earn a ton of money missioning, in the mean time you can learn more about the game and understand what the aggressors are doing to you so that you can develop ways to combat it for when you return to the corp mechanic. Take your time with Eve there really is no rush.

Think outside the box a little, there’s no rule stating that you can’t train one of your 3 characters to simply be in an NPC corp doing missions, then you can put another toon in a corp that fights wardecs and get yourself some good low cost fun. I’m telling you man there is no feeling like fighting back against the machine with a crew of cool dudes, it’s amazing.

I come from NPC 0.0 living alone where survival is all it was about for my playstyle. I chose to spend my time alone in a very hostile environment and I was forced to take a long hard look at the game mechanics.

One thing about Eve is that there always seems to be an alternative to getting something done, but instead of people using and endorsing that alternative they will look for an “easy” way and when that fails they come and complain on the forum about the game being unbalanced.

I really think its time to start listening to the people who know the game and understand risk/loss.

OP, do what I suggest, go NPC with your ratting toon, and fund another toon to CEO a pvp corp. recruit others like you get in cruisers and attack the mercs home, camp them for an hour simply just to show your strength. You must understand that this is the only solution and no amount of debate will ever change this fact.

Learn to work outside of the game mechanic by exploiting a loop hole in the logic. I’m sorry but we have to HTFU and we gotta give finger to the aggressors while jamming a Scourge heavy missile in their exhaust pipe.!!!

[Forseti_Valkyrie]

It just needs a skill-based limit just like EVERYTHING else in Eve.

Based on Corp or Alliance CEO skills.

Failed Diplomacy I-V, 1 wardec per level. Advanced Failed Diplomacy I-V, 2 additional wardecs per level for a grand total of 15 wardecs for an individual corp or alliance.

Wars should have meaning and require authentic strategy. Otherwise they really are just a cheap AF way to get free kills on hundreds of corps. “Wah, they cost ISK… Wah…” and you make it back by the jump-freighter full in loot.

[CowQueen_MMXII]

The main problem with wars is that they aren’t wars. There are no real objectives, no reason behind going to war, no incentive to actively do anything to win it and no discentive if you don’t win or even do anything.

It’s a good thing that you can declare wars freely and for whatever reason you might have. But if you declare war, you should also have the means and some pressure to actually bring war:

• means to actively pursue your targets could be improved locators that tell you where and approximately when someone was online or work, with much less information, on a whole corp or give you some directions where you could find assets in space of your target corp…
• and my favorite example for pressure: for each war you declared that ends in a draw or loss, all wars for the next four weeks get 20% more expensive

[Faylee_Freir]

@CowQueen_MMXII

The main problem with wars is that they aren’t wars. There are no real objectives, no reason behind going to war, no incentive to actively do anything to win it and no discentive if you don’t win or even do anything.

Except they are wars and there are objectives. The objectives are ending the war, but there are objectives. Here are some reasons to fight and their objectives:

• Structure removal (showing up for timers)
• Trade Hub denial / access
• To show off the pvp strategies and capabilities to others
• To provide many varieties of these points as a service to others (attacking and defending)

So if you’re a defender and you are sick and tired of your haulers and miners getting picked off, you should feel the need to do something about it. You give the attackers enough bloody noses and black eyes and they will likely move on to easier targets of opportunity. The mindset that it’s impossible to fight against these types of players is silly and is proven wrong all the time.

@CowQueen_MMXII

and my favorite example for pressure: for each war you declared that ends in a draw or loss, all wars for the next four weeks get 20% more expensive

This will continue to be absolutely broken in the face of freely dropping to an NPC corp with no consequences (not saying there ought to be). A CEO can instantly reform his corp, ending the war instantly and the attackers be hit with these penalties.

I also don’t believe that CCP that should create mechanics that dictate HOW we fight our wars. It’s a sandbox and we’re playing in it.

[Faylee_Freir]

@Forseti_Valkyrie

Based on Corp or Alliance CEO skills.

Failed Diplomacy I-V, 1 wardec per level. Advanced Failed Diplomacy I-V, 2 additional wardecs per level for a grand total of 15 wardecs for an individual corp or alliance.

Why should the amount of wars be limited? Are blanket decs really an issue? In my opinion it serves are a really good ISK sink if you’re thinking of it as an investment where you expect to get some kills or content that generate returns.

If you start limiting the number of wars then you will start to see Alliances owning more than one alliance or corps with tons of shell corps where they can put wars in and freely jump between them as targets come and go.

[CowQueen_MMXII]

@Faylee_Freir

Trade Hub denial / access

Doesn’t really work. Alts, courier contracts and quite often it’s enough to just choose a different trade hub.

@Faylee_Freir

To show off the pvp strategies and capabilities to others

That’s pretty vague, considering some definitions of “elite pvp” around here.

@Faylee_Freir

So if you’re a defender and you are sick and tired of your haulers and miners getting picked off, you should feel the need to do something about it.

That should be pretty easy: don’t haul with chars in corp, don’t mine 2 jumps from Jita. I know, there are lots of people who don’t even realize they are in war after they’ve been shot…

@Faylee_Freir

This will continue to be absolutely broken in the face of freely dropping to an NPC corp with no consequences (not saying there ought to be). A CEO can instantly reform his corp, ending the war instantly and the attackers be hit with these penalties.

Choose targets that have something to lose (pocos, citadels…) or will at least try to defend themselves or have so many members that a kill is almost guaranteed.

If a corp can easily disband for the duration of a war dec, it wasn’t really a worthy target in the first place.
Of course, you could tie some victory condition to people leaving or becoming inactive, but it would make things more complicated.

@Faylee_Freir

I also don’t believe that CCP that should create mechanics that dictate HOW we fight our wars. It’s a sandbox and we’re playing in it.

You could also rename the war dec to “limited concord license for targeted aggression in high security space” (or some other ■■■■■■■■ name) and keep it as it is. But don’t call it a declaration of war if you don’t intend to lead a war and just sit in front of a trade hub and wait.

@Faylee_Freir

Are blanket decs really an issue?

It’s lazy and rather shallow game play.

My corps were declared way over 30 wars in the last years. Out of those I remember exactly one : from 2012 when VegasMirage came into our wh-system and talked ■■■■ (was quite entertaining). The rest were just random ■■■■ with no relevant, or even memorable, game play results.

[Faylee_Freir]

@CowQueen_MMXII

Doesn’t really work. Alts, courier contracts and quite often it’s enough to just choose a different trade hub.

Except it does work. Haulers get killed coming to hubs everyday, and a lot of times it directly impact Nullsec line members they way they lose their stuff. Sure there are neutral alts, but that’s were ganking works to keep people in check that overload their hauler and take too much risk.

@CowQueen_MMXII

That’s pretty vague, considering some definitions of “elite pvp” around here.

Some groups try the basic, fly around and show your whole fleet and then cry when you don’t get a fight. There are those that use things like wormholes and lowsec routes to pop behind enemies to surprise them. There are so many clever ways to use mechanics in highsec and the more you know how to use them, the better you can be. There are some groups that are really good at baiting merc corps into a fight and the typical guerrilla warfare where you can pick off stragglers.

All of that kind of stuff can be demoralizing if you’re on the side that gets owned all the time and can’t adapt and learn. Those kinds of people cry for nerfs or just claim that highsec pvp is stupid, but it’s simply that they don’t understand how to fight in highsec.

@CowQueen_MMXII

That should be pretty easy: don’t haul with chars in corp, don’t mine 2 jumps from Jita. I know, there are lots of people who don’t even realize they are in war after they’ve been shot…

That’s an option but there are ways you can use you miners and haulers to your advantage and bait out a fight. It’s really simple and super effective.

There’s a notification window for a reason. If a regular member doesn’t notice it, then surely any CEO that is worth his salt would inform his members (especially newer ones) that a war is about to start or is live. Then he can talk strategy and offer advice. Problem is we have too many lazy or incompetent ceos taking advantage of new players.

@CowQueen_MMXII

Choose targets that have something to lose (pocos, citadels…) or will at least try to defend themselves or have so many members that a kill is almost guaranteed.

Everyone has something to lose. Wars shouldn’t just be about structures. If that was the case then CCP needs to overhaul Citadels to reduce structure spam in highsec and then delete wars. That’s not a good option because it opens the door for more risk free gameplay.

@CowQueen_MMXII

If a corp can easily disband for the duration of a war dec, it wasn’t really a worthy target in the first place.

Of course, you could tie some victory condition to people leaving or becoming inactive, but it would make things more complicated.

That’s not always true. I can think of groups like Hog Collective that have a parent corp / alliance, then a TON of little baby corps. These splinter corps exist and are an extension of the main corp so they can have full access to structures and anything else available. If we were only allowed to target the structure or the members of that corp, then there would be all the other splinter corps of the main that are free to do whatever. Killing them is good leverage and pressure on the main corp.

@CowQueen_MMXII

You could also rename the war dec to “limited concord license for targeted aggression in high security space” (or some other ■■■■■■■■ name) and keep it as it is. But don’t call it a declaration of war if you don’t intend to lead a war and just sit in front of a trade hub and wait.

Do you mean to tell me that you can’t ever see a war occurring in either historical / modern real life or science fiction where a group intentionally targets the supply lines and trading capabilities of another entity? Do you want us to line up like traditional combat and take turns firing volleys like soldiers shooting muskets?

@CowQueen_MMXII

It’s lazy and rather shallow game play.

It’s a double edged sword, really. More things to hunt, more things to shoot. If you’re a defender against someone that has 100 wars and they don’t come visit you, then no harm. Just a little added paranoia and precaution (nothing wrong with that). What’s to stop you from going and bringing the fight to them? With 100 wars and them handing around trade hubs, surely it would be easy to bait a fight on your terms or get one alone?

[Sere_O_Asis]

Please do, you’re missed. You were a hero when I started playing EVE, because you actually defended and helped new players.

I know, I was one of those new players.
o7

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Thanks.