About wardeckers in High Sec and solution

[Teckos_Pech]

@CowQueen_MMXII

This is true as long as there is anything that can be content. If nothing happens (as in many war decs) there is also nothing that can be called content (and this is actually the point where I agree with Drac).

Nothing happens in many cases which is one reason why mass war deccing is a viable strategy.

My problem is that many proposals/discussions are…well…shallow. For example, mass war deccing. Why is it a viable strategy? Note, BTW, I am using the word viable…not desirable. Probably because it is a way to get “content” with less effort. And why is that? Because avoiding war decs, especially now, is ridiculously easy. If you live in HS and simply do not want to fight at all, make a player channel, invite your buddies and drop to NPC corps until the dec expires. If you don’t want to do that, just avoid the trade lanes/hubs. Develop one or more of your account slots to be your OOC hauler(s). That is what NS entities do. They almost entirely side step the issue of war decs by using OOC alts. So from an organization standpoint war decs mean little. So given this, dec lots of corps and hopefully you’ll get some action.

Then people conclude: this activity these other guys are doing over there…yeah I don’t like it so it must stop. Usually there is an ulterior motive in that that activity entails conflict with those who do not like the “bad” activity. Further, they rarely think of the broader or longer term consequences. Suppose we simply hard cap war decs to say 5. That’s it, no entity no matter how big, small, whatever can have more than 5 war decs. What would happen? Well, those guys logging in that are in mass war dec corps…they’d probably stop. HS would probably be safer…and more boring and stultifying. The downward trend in PCU, which appears to have leveled off, might continue it’s downward trajectory.

Or to put it more simply: Okay, so we get rid of mass war decs. Then what?

[Dracvlad]

I love it when an old rich lazy player gives advice on how to counter war decs that only old rich lazy players can follow, should CCP advise all the new players that start in hisec to train up their three characters to max alpha before they start playing, better still why not just give them three fully trained alpha characters and be done with it, because that is what you just advocated for Teckos.

The key element that you ignore is the lack of meaningful content. And where do you go from there, eventually you will be asking CCP to force players to log in to defend against the war dec s which are pointless and if they don’t CCP moves all their ISK to the war deckers, some war dec posters have almost got to that point.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Dracvlad

…because that is what you just advocated for Teckos.

I didn’t advocate anything. You are just too stupid to realize this.

@Dracvlad

The key element that you ignore is the lack of meaningful content.

Please tell us all what “meaningful content” is?

@Dracvlad

And where do you go from there, eventually you will be asking CCP to force players to log in to defend against the war dec s which are pointless and if they don’t CCP moves all their ISK to the war deckers, some war dec posters have almost got to that point.

I am not asking for anything, dope.

[Dracvlad]

@Teckos_Pech

I didn’t advocate anything. You are just too stupid to realize this.

Yes you did you said this:

@Teckos_Pech

Develop one or more of your account slots to be your OOC hauler(s). That is what NS entities do. They almost entirely side step the issue of war decs by using OOC alts. So from an organization standpoint war decs mean little.

This is not what a new player can do, your advice is meaningless for the players most heavily affected by war decs.

@Teckos_Pech

Please tell us all what “meaningful content” is?

Reason to login basically.

@Teckos_Pech

I am not asking for anything, dope.

What is this the whine mode.

@Teckos_Pech

And why is that? Because avoiding war decs, especially now, is ridiculously easy. If you live in HS and simply do not want to fight at all, make a player channel, invite your buddies and drop to NPC corps until the dec expires

[Teckos_Pech]

@Dracvlad

Yes you did you said this:

No, I was describing possible responses one could use to avoid a war dec. Describing something is not to advocate for it. Nowhere was I saying a player corp should do any of those things.

Further, where in my post did I say my commentary was confined to new players? Nowhere, fool. You completely read that into my post. I was discussing why mass war deccing is likely to be a viable strategy, it had nothing to do with new players, new player corps, etc.

@Dracvlad

Reason to login basically.

Then that may very well include mass war deccing.

Cripes but you are dumb sometimes.

Oh, and there is a third option when getting war decced, just not undock or even login.

[Faylee_Freir]

@Dracvlad

That is a major element of it certainly from my experience, I also noted a lot of older players could not be bothered to go after people like Marmite or VMG because it was boring content. I was in the situation where I was trying to get my corp to go for Marmite all out and the experienced players just did not want to do it, much to my irritation.

I understand that the meta that goes on in highsec may not be desirable for those that choose not to participate in it.There are those that DO choose to participate in it both as the aggressor and defender that enjoy it.

The problem is that for a LONG time we hear the same things parroted in this echo chamber here on the forums, on Reddit, and on other spaces where people are allowed to write about their feelings and opinions on Eve Online stuff. So you have players that are being told that highsec is cancer and risk averse all because of someone elses personal opinion. These players may or may not eventually become the victim or target to a highsec war, and reinforce what they’ve been told or taught because of their inexperience or knowledge.

I am not a good player, but I’m confident that I can take my knowledge, can-do attitude, experience, and abilities and apply them to any area of space and hold my own.

The point I’m making is that it is complete trash where you see the “elite” players of nullsec talk trash about highsec pvp, and their attitude of “get out of highsec” is cancerous. Then you see whining and cries all over the place because its “not fair” whatever kind of reason.

@Dracvlad

I love it when an old rich lazy player gives advice on how to counter war decs that only old rich lazy players can follow, should CCP advise all the new players that start in hisec to train up their three characters to max alpha before they start playing

More excuses. New players are not worthless in wars. Wars can be very imitating for new players, I will admit… but if they are led and advised by competent leaders you will find that new players can definitely have fun with wars.

@Dracvlad

for the players most heavily affected by war decs.

Where do you get your statistics that wars greatly effect new players the most? To be honest we kill far more experienced players from other areas of space the most. They just happen to be coming through without scouting, without backup, or are completely defenseless. Then the train of tears start as they cry that WARS ARE NOT FAIR FOR NEW PLAYERS! It’s just something that everyone likes to parrot at this point. It actually has no supporting evidence to back up these claims. It’s just nullsec players using that as firepower

[Scipio_Artelius]

@Dracvlad

love it when an old rich lazy player gives advice on how to counter war decs that only old rich lazy players can follow, should CCP advise all the new players that start in hisec to train up their three characters to max alpha b

Good Corps make their OOC alts, a corp asset during a war.

Old, rich players should guide and support the new players in Corp so it’s easy for them to continue having fun, even if they stay in highsec.

unfortunately there are too many poor Corps, led by incompetent and selfish players that amplify the problem for their new members because they lack the knowledge and the leadership skills to keep things fun for their Corp.

[Aaron]

Never underestimate the newbros. I’ve helped 30 day old new players achieve some great PVP wins. They listened well and did everything I asked. I’ve also seen newbros come to NPC 0.0 and actually do very well.

I does not take long for a newbro to train a T1 hauler on one of his character slots for some limited low risk hauling in an NPC corp.

Scipio Artelius is correct, older player should guide newer players, I suppose these forums are cool because it is a place where new guys can get good advice.

[Faylee_Freir]

I’ve asked these questions before and gotten no feedback or anyone that have a genuine answer or response. I’m going to ask them again in hopes that real arguments can be made so we can shed light on the issues surrounding wars.

• Is there anything fundamentally wrong or broken with wars in Eve Online?

• What is fundamentally wrong or broken about groups being able to have 100+ wars if they choose?

Start with those two questions and give me your best responses.

[Aaron]

The only thing wrong with wars is the players that use the mechanic. I read a thread about a corp who got wardecced and a week later the corp that wardecced them couldn’t even be bothered to pay them a visit. LOL.

I accept eve is long winded and I know the watchlist has gone but come on, what happened to good ole reconnaissance and studying your mark before you wardec them? Gaining intel is actually fun to me. You get to learn how much your mark is willing to risk going about their daily and you get to know their movement patterns.

Being in today’s wardec corp would totally bore me in all honesty. Daily hi sec camps for wardec targets, and oh look we just killed a target 15 on 1, boring.

I suppose theres nothing wrong or broken with a corp being able to dec 100+ wars, Like most things in Eve using the wardec mechanic frivolously can actually backfire if people are not careful. If these 100+ corps suddenly become bothered to talk to each other and unite then it would be a problem for the wardec corp to lose ships or their ability to camp effectively on top of the cost of 100+ decs.

I know this game is time consuming, My advice to anyone feeling the harshness of wardecs is to seek allies and form agreements where a few fleet commanders can lead some low risk pvp against the wardeccers.

Nothing is really broken in Eve, most of the problems I read about here are due to the way the mechanic is used not the actual mechanic. Ultimately this game will be what ever the players make it which is the cold hard truth, accept it or not.

[Dom_Arkaral]

@Faylee_Freir

Is there anything fundamentally wrong or broken with wars in Eve Online?

The watchlist… or lack of one (BRING IT BACK FFS, I WANT TO HUNT LIKE I USED TO)

@Faylee_Freir

What is fundamentally wrong or broken about groups being able to have 100+ wars if they choose?

Nothing, I guess it’s boring for one side waiting for the other to show up, and boring for the other not logging for a week (instead of going out of their way to smack some dudes)

it’s just a side-effect of the removal of the only viable way to actually be able to hunt (without wasting a lot of time just to see if a single target from the targeted corp/alliance is online…
and well, it made a lot of my good friends quit because they needed to spend too much time for a pitiful reward, and they didn’t want to end up like the “elite major merc alliances”

(I’m off to sleep, so don’t expect any replies until 8 hours from now or so )

[Faylee_Freir]

@Dom_Arkaral

The watchlist… or lack of one (BRING IT BACK FFS, I WANT TO HUNT LIKE I USED TO)

I don’t think that the lack of a watchlist type feature is an issue with the wardec mechanics. Sure it effects the meta of wars, but hub and pipe camping were already a large part of wars before the nerf. Sure it would empower players to change the meta up and go out more to search for their targets, but the whining about aggressors hanging out around hubs and pipes will never end.

The watchlist removal also effected so much more than highsec wars and has changed the meta in many different niches of gameplay. I would like to see some kind of watchlist functionality make it back into the game, but I highly doubt CCP will ever see this done.

@Dom_Arkaral

Nothing, I guess it’s boring for one side waiting for the other to show up, and boring for the other not logging for a week (instead of going out of their way to smack some dudes)

The truth in most cases is that defenders rarely ever bother to mount a force to properly defend or attack the aggressors. In most cases the aggressor has nearly min-maxed his setup and attack plans and it leaves little room for error or victory for the defenders. Prior to the watchlist nerf it was just as common then as it is now to see player drop corp or stay logged off for a week.

Metas change and the watchlist was a huge shakeup for highsec wars. There are still viable ways to hunt and gather intel even without a watchlist… it’s just different than it was before. I’m not talking about some work-around to accomplish the same task as pulling up your contacts list to see if targets are online.

I know some of the players that you’re referring to and I have nothing but immense respect for them. Some of them introduced me to highsec pvp and wars, so for that I’m grateful… I can say that I think a lot of these players that quit were stuck in their ways and refused to adapt or die. I know “effort” was put out to adjust to the new way of doing things, but to be honest a lot of their burnout was self-inflicted.

@Dom_Arkaral

and they didn’t want to end up like the “elite major merc alliances

So instead they join nullsec groups and stop playing the game after literally a day. I hate to see this happen, but it’s kinda sad if you feel you have no desire to play the game once CCP nerfs the niche you enjoy. Look at Feyd and how he turned full 180 on us and started talking ■■■■ about highsec content. He joined BL then later PL and has quit the game. It’s just a poor attitude to have, and I struggle with it myself with things like hyperdunking. One of the biggest abusers of the watchlist were super and titan hunters like PHEW and RC, yet you still see them hunting (yes it is harder now than it was before, just listening to them talk about it).

[Dracvlad]

@Teckos_Pech

No, I was describing possible responses one could use to avoid a war dec. Describing something is not to advocate for it. Nowhere was I saying a player corp should do any of those things.

The next step on from what you said is to have a complete character able to operate while leaving the first in the corp to maintain it. No idea what you are talking about in terms of corp.

@Teckos_Pech

Further, where in my post did I say my commentary was confined to new players? Nowhere, fool. You completely read that into my post.

As war decs impact new players the most I pointed it in this direction, as I said you as an old fat rich lazy player you see it as nothing, they don’t, your hubris and arrogance is obvious and you are the fool because you are blind death and dumb in every subject you get involved in.

@Teckos_Pech

I was discussing why mass war deccing is likely to be a viable strategy, it had nothing to do with new players, new player corps, etc.

It has every thing to do with new players and new corps you dumb feck.

@Teckos_Pech

Oh, and there is a third option when getting war decced, just not undock or even login.

Which a lot take as the content is naff you dumb feck

@Teckos_Pech

Cripes but you are dumb sometimes.

I think you are dumb too, now run along to the AFK cloaky thread and make it all about you, you know you want to…

[Teckos_Pech]

@Dracvlad

lots of stupid drivel

Why don’t you tell us how awesome you are again…or even better yet your pathetic wife do it for you.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Teckos_Pech

or even better yet your pathetic wife do it for you.

Time to take a break from posting, man.

[Dracvlad]

@Faylee_Freir

The point I’m making is that it is complete trash where you see the “elite” players of nullsec talk trash about highsec pvp, and their attitude of “get out of highsec” is cancerous. Then you see whining and cries all over the place because its “not fair” whatever kind of reason.

I knew the point you were making and I had seen it myself when trying to get old high SP players to go properly after Marmite at the time, the thing is that they just did not want to do it as it was so boring. When I describe hisec as a place which is mainly made up of nullsec alts who avoid contact, it is merely to point that out.

I agree with you that the mechanics are largely fine, I don’t see any need to restrict the number of war decs, I think that the cost to do a war dec on the Goons at 500m is way too much for smaller war deckers, for example I wanted to war dec the Goons when in hisec and when I realised it was 500m I was like WTF!

Well I think you are a good player, in terms of getting results in this game, this is really more than anything else about attitude.

The get out of hisec is really to recruit new players into their ranks.

And Teckos here started whining about how unfair avoidance is, in truth if both sides are whining then its pretty good, I think the mechanics are actually good, but it is the attitude of the players that needs to change on both sides and that is why I went for the EA idea per constellation which gives some sort of watch list capability, becuase it is use ful and offers a taregt for the more adventurous to shoot.

@Faylee_Freir

More excuses. New players are not worthless in wars. Wars can be very imitating for new players, I will admit… but if they are led and advised by competent leaders you will find that new players can definitely have fun with wars.

I never said they are useless in wars, you are projecting that on me, I pointed out that a new player does not have that luxury to split training for some time. Aaron posted here and I know he had a new player corp in hisec and he shocked a war decker by leading his corp properly, I wish more people would do that, as I said people need to nudge them in a certain direction.

But they will need to avoid VMG, Public Enemy and P I R A T like the plague because that is the non-fun zone. Well up until they have got very good of course, we can always hope.

@Faylee_Freir

Where do you get your statistics that wars greatly effect new players the most?

Because they tend to be the ones whining about it the most and saying that they can’t play, it is most noticeable on new players setting up corps. Do you read the forums or just cherry pick what you want to read.

@Faylee_Freir

To be honest we kill far more experienced players from other areas of space the most. They just happen to be coming through without scouting, without backup, or are completely defenseless.

Already noted, the dumb nullsec player who does not check for wars tend to fall like flies.

@Faylee_Freir

Then the train of tears start as they cry that WARS ARE NOT FAIR FOR NEW PLAYERS! It’s just something that everyone likes to parrot at this point. It actually has no supporting evidence to back up these claims. It’s just nullsec players using that as firepower

You are just projecting your own bias here, yes nullsec players have a healthy contempt for hisec war deckers, but having looked at war deckers in hisec for some time I know that they are very well set up and effective. I spent a lot of time in hisec and was looking very closely at hisec mercs, at one point I had all the war dec players I could find on watch list and I had all their neutral RR and spy alts too.

[Dracvlad]

@Scipio_Artelius

Good Corps make their OOC alts, a corp asset during a war.

Old, rich players should guide and support the new players in Corp so it’s easy for them to continue having fun, even if they stay in highsec.

unfortunately there are too many poor Corps, led by incompetent and selfish players that amplify the problem for their new members because they lack the knowledge and the leadership skills to keep things fun for their Corp.

Agreed to all of that, that was not the point however.

[Dracvlad]

Your reply to Don is pretty much how I see it. Damn good post.

[Dracvlad]

@Teckos_Pech

Why don’t you tell us how awesome you are again…or even better yet your pathetic wife do it for you.

I am telling you how crap you are, now run along to the AFK cloaky thread and make it all about you, you know you want to…

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Time to take a break from posting, man.

I was mucking around with my second account main as my girlfriend in game at one point, so I think he was referring to that. Which is how I took it.