About wardeckers in High Sec and solution

[Lord_Razpataz]

@Dracvlad

As I have fully committed to my nullsec alliance and I am not in the right TZ for this I just hope that someone with drive and intelligence can work it out and give it a go (that is not to say that I have the drive, ability or intelligence to do it.) At last there is some meaningful co-operative PvE in hisec with these new FOB’s that pushes people to co-operative play, that is a damn good start, CCP should have a big pat on the back for that as it can change the attitude of people in hisec, if they can work together to kill these FOB’s why not do the same against war deckers?

Because if a npc fights you its “content”, if a pvp’r decs you its “griefing”

I haven’t personally logged on after the patch, but for the patch notes I think it looks like incursion lite. just need to scan the sites instead.
We all know how the incursion guys operate right? Elitist group of alts in npc or 1 man corp, dodging wardecs left and right. Yup… FOB’s will solve everything…

The fleet that does the most damage to a destroyed FOB, will receive a payout from DED.

If they had given it to the corp/alliance (in a fleet ofc) that did the most damage, I would say it could work.
That way there’s a benefit grouping up.

I hope I’m wrong tho…

There was a lot of people that hoped Observatory Arrays would fix the lack of watchlist, how did that work? I bet when we eventually get it (2+ years in the future at minimum) it wont have anything that will replace the old watchlist functionality.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Dracvlad

One part of the issue is a lack of real targets for meaningful content, for example these small corps of miners were content for solo or small gang war deckers, so the loss of a significant number of people in hisec did hurt war deckers. Another is that blanket war dec’s are seen as griefing by some, I do not agree with that statement as I see it as more a desperate search for easy content, but that is just me. However my point of view is that the staleness in hisec is the main issue.

I think many of us here agree with the overall statement in the final sentence. We disagree on some details though. However, given this is a sandbox, in theory different ideas and suggestions could be considered for “freshening up” HS. It does not have to be either/or…it can be both or all.

[Dracvlad]

@Lord_Razpataz

Because if a npc fights you its “content”, if a pvp’r decs you its “griefing”

Yeah, both are content, more like the skills and attitude could develop from that. At least I hope so.

@Lord_Razpataz

I haven’t personally logged on after the patch, but for the patch notes I think it looks like incursion lite. just need to scan the sites instead.

We all know how the incursion guys operate right? Elitist group of alts in npc or 1 man corp, dodging wardecs left and right. Yup… FOB’s will solve everything…

Go and read this then tell me what you think.

Though I think it is more to get the attitude to do challenging stuff, but yeah its not the same.

@Lord_Razpataz

There was a lot of people that hoped Observatory Arrays would fix the lack of watchlist, how did that work? I bet when we eventually get it (2+ years in the future at minimum) it wont have anything that will replace the old watchlist functionality.

I am still hoping for that, as I said before I wish they would hurry up, would be good to see you guys back and firing on all six.

[Lord_Razpataz]

I read the link Drac, did not change my views.

Still think there should be something grouping up people in HS, not just in social groups or purple fleets.
Conflict, man… think corps fighting each other over the payout of the FOB’s, then the losing side has an option to dec the winning side.

That would maybe liven up things

[Dracvlad]

@Lord_Razpataz

Still think there should be something grouping up people in HS, not just in social groups or purple fleets.

That is the key part, I agree.

[Keno_Skir]

@Dracvlad

Hmmmm, well yes and no, yes because previously before the destroyers DPS was buffed so much people had to gank with BS’s, there was ganking but it was limited, after the DPS change loads of people did it. So the issue here was not so much the play style but a change made to the game by CCP without thinking through the balance impact and adjusting for it, which was my criticism of it.

See where you’re coming from and totally agree. Destroyers just shouldn’t be putting out 700dps or anywhere even remotely close to that. I love ganking and all, but at least it used to be hard…

[March_rabbit]

@Jenn_aSide

I should not have to say this, but a CCP tag doesn’t mean that the person writing has something to do with the thing being talked about. You took a single line out of a developer’s summary of another team and thought it meant something.

Dude, come on…
Next we will need to find that particular team lead and that particular dev who made these changes to ask them whether suicide ganking was a reason or not.

And then do you really believe that these dev blogs are “free for all” and do not need approval before posting?

[Jenn_aSide]

I imagine they do, though I doubt anyone parses every word.

The point is being lost here in that the changes to barges aren’t just about suicide ganking. The blog from the actual people responsible for that says this plainly, the point of their changes was to make ships other than the hulk viable,

[March_rabbit]

First, the point was not “lost”. Is was added. Especially was added the idea that these changes have a reason which was not initially given. It’s not “anyone parses every word”. Usually such changes are prohibited.

And being “viable” does not exclude anti-suicide ganking purpose.

Again: either we “trust CCP” or “it’s just mark on someone’s avatar”.

BTW: we talk about “CCP Rise’s presentation” but does anyone know if it was HE and HIS TEAM who actually did that famous research? (Didn’t he “lost point” by the way?)

[Jenn_aSide]

Yes it was Rise’s team. Watch the presentation.

And what you said was that there was no reason for changes to mining barges except suicide ganking.

@March_rabbit

The only thing where such tank really helps is suicide ganking.

Which isn’t true at all, again, we use proc tanks to good effect all day in null, where they is no suicide ganking. And many of us flew procs on EVE Radios “Industrial Revolution” roams in low sec. Because of the tank.

According to The team leader that made the changes, the reason was to make more ships than the hulk viable.

[March_rabbit]

You totally misread what i wrote. I only mentioned BS level of tank (not cruiser level, not battlecriuser level). And the only mention of it is in that dev blog where they tell that this is protection from suicide gankers.

On the other hand your examples show pretty funny meaning of “viability of mining barges”. Do you really believe that making them be able to “roam low sec” or bait roamers means “viable” when you talk about mining ships? Can it be real target of rebalance?

[Coralas]

@March_rabbit

Notice “in most cases” in my original quote. Your example is pretty rare actually. Of all mining barges my group killed for quite long time i cannot recall one defensive operation.
Actually anything smaller than rorqual dies mostly silently.

Vexor | Leo Seti | Killmail | zKillboard this is where I got tackled and easily lasted long enough
Dramiel | Ceezuh | Killmail | zKillboard this is the same scenario again, but where I reshipped from ratting first
Griffin | Gozer the Gozerian | Killmail | zKillboard t1 tackle killed in 2 salvos, warp in killer aborted at the gate (our bad!)
Astero | Phat Lee | Killmail | zKillboard defending a relic so I could mine it for 10% ores.

[Coralas]

@March_rabbit

You totally misread what i wrote. I only mentioned BS level of tank (not cruiser level, not battlecriuser level). And the only mention of it is in that dev blog where they tell that this is protection from suicide gankers.

On the other hand your examples show pretty funny meaning of “viability of mining barges”. Do you really believe that making them be able to “roam low sec” or bait roamers means “viable” when you talk about mining ships? Can it be real target of rebalance?

They are a defensive pvp ship that mines whilst it waits for trouble to turn up. If people die to a roam of them, its because people can be baited.

Also we had hull tanked navy brutixes and armor tanked domis that I flew during AT practice, and both of them had more hitpoints than any fitting I’ve seen on a skiff, let alone a proc with scrambler/web.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

I’m no expert, but I dont see a problem in the current yield:tank ratio of mining vessels.

Thread has branched so many times its hard to consolidate any meaningful discussion…

[Dracvlad]

@Salvos_Rhoska

’m no expert, but I dont see a problem in the current yield:tank ratio of mining vessels.

There is no issue now, well some gankers complain, but they like to cry when things are a challenge.

@Salvos_Rhoska

Thread has branched so many times its hard to consolidate any meaningful discussion…

CODE and the ego of Jenn strikes again…, and I of course was part of that, doh!

In fact there seems to be an agreement developing of sorts around the hollowing out of hisec and there are some ideas on how to deal with it.

[Jenn_aSide]

The “hollowing out of high sec” occurred for the exact same reason that null sec got screwed up so many times. CCP gave people what they were asking for (‘more safety’ on the high sec side, ‘farms and fields’ on the null sec side). And as this and other threads on GD demonstrate, most people are unable to identify the problems truthfully, and unable to admit that the natural result of their thinking in the past led to the present.

When looking at high sec, it’s lke someone at CCP said “man, look at this healthy eco system. You know what this already eco system needs? Fewer predators!” With the best of intentions, CCP made high sec soooo boring that it is interesting to no one. Not Wardecced nor wardeccer. Not Ganker or gankee. And the result was predictable.

As I’m fond of saying, in EVE as in IRL. You just can’t get some people to understand that not everything needs ‘fixing’ (‘balancing’ in game speak). And so they advocate for changes “in the name of fairness” (read: balance again) and when those don’t work they ask for more and that results in a worse situation than the one they had before they started complaining.

High sec was a better place before CCP tried to make it ‘better’ and ‘more balanced’ by killing off the only people who made it interesting (the bad guys that some of us lived to thwart) . EVE overall was a better game when it had 1/100th of the content (and the content it has was ‘unbalanced’) than it is now but said to people “here is a space ship, ■■■■ you”.

And the ‘this could be better’ crowd will never understand.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

Well Drac just forgot to mention that those Battleships which where used for ganking had way more DPS than a Destroyer and could be insured which often resulted in the ganker even earning ISK becuase of insurance fraud.

[Dracvlad]

It is true that a lot of what you call “content creators” left the game, you see it as a deliberate act to make the game safer, while CCP saw it as merely cleaning up the code around certain mechanics that resulted in gotcha events which those people relied on. Psychotic Monk was finding it more and more difficult before the illegal toggle because the prey was disappearing from the game or not bothering to mentor new blood and that last part was what made CCP apply that toggle. You can get hung up on debating that, but most games are social contructs, especially those built around co-operative play.

You have an opinion that this made hisec less interesting and you are right, it has made hisec less interesting, however I found hisec less interesting because I had no clue what the mechanics would do, so I just kept well away from that content and most people were like me, it was only new players or those who were quick to anger who fell for this stuff. I remember with a laugh people telling me that if people came into your mission site just warp out because you have no idea what the mechanics will do, I found it hilarious and rather bemused that game play was based on this., even if it was funny

I am focused on the loss of a large group of players that were the content in hisec, my view is that by allowing such an imbalance in the protection of mining ships in terms of their tank against a buffed DPS from destroyers that made it too easy they cleaned out of hisec a fairly large group of players that were giving content to hunters in hisec. And this has resulted in the stale game play in hisec here and now.

Add to that the moving of new players straight to nullsec in Karma Fleet, Brave and Pandemic Horde and you have the issue for hisec.

CCP is not going to stop ganking it is an integral part of the game, nor are they going to stop war decs, they will however adjust the mechanics and game balance around them based on the ecosystem that they see. As many people in here have pointed out the mechanics are largely fine, with some adjustments needed. However what is really needed is rewarding co-operative play that benefits people who work together in an active corp and who develop the skills and attitude to stand up for themselves.

I see signs that CCP realise this, but they need to do more. Now you can come ito threads like this fire off you normal strongly felt broadside cause a few emotive bursts, embarrass yourself and then withdraw with the feeling you have shown them, but really! I agree getting those people back in the game with something they can exploit would be a good idea, but do you have any suggestions?

@Ima_Wreckyou

Well Drac just forgot to mention that those Battleships which where used for ganking had way more DPS than a Destroyer and could be insured which often resulted in the ganker even earning ISK becuase of insurance fraud.

So what? It was still a lot easier to use destroyers…

PS I love hisec mining in the Orca

[Keno_Skir]

@Ima_Wreckyou

Well Drac just forgot to mention that those Battleships which where used for ganking had way more DPS than a Destroyer and could be insured which often resulted in the ganker even earning ISK becuase of insurance fraud.

Ok… well then i guess talk to Drac about that? I just said destroyers shouldn’t do 700dps.

[Omar_Alharazaad]

HACs, T3D’s and BC’s can do up to 700dps while sporting a vastly superior tank.
It’s not their deeps that is the issue when you start talking about ganking.
The issue is people assuming that they are safe, and when it violently demonstrated to them that this is untrue they crap a golden brick and demand changes.
The wailing of the lazy masses all too often eclipses the quiet rationality of the few.