@Alistair_Atreides @Nevyn_Auscent
I don’t understand the discussion between trader’s market and producers’s market .
Any traders is very exceptionnaly a pure trader, all manufacturers are trader .
In the example about PI , any wiser manufacturers know that there is good time to sell and bad time as long as he can hold his sells .
When you are undercut , you are undercut , ther is no point to chase how much the guy is a part trader , a real trader or a pure trader .
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Thanks for asking.
A producer’s market is driven by the production of the goods, selling to a consumer. It cuts out a trader who would buy and sell the item in the interim.
The trader lives in a time-gap between production and consumption.
Without that time gap the trader would not exist.
Imagine a world where when you wanted an item, it was made the moment you purchased it by a producer and shipped directly to you. This is called “On-Demand Production”, it’s a real-world objective.
In such a world, there would be no such thing as a “market.”
You would be the broker/trader, buying when you want something, at the price a producer is willing to produce it for.
A producer’s market is driven by the demand of a consumer and they very quickly offer their production price, and a consumer very “on-demand” consumes it.
A trader has very little time to enter such a market, and this LACK of time is represented by a very narrow or even negative buy-in aka entry-price-point.
Does that make sense so far?
Basically, the lack of profit represents the lack of time/space for a trader/hauler to make a profit. Because the consumer needs it right away and consumes it as quickly as it is produced.
Such markets are typified by large-scale production to meet such high demand.
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The “one-tick” rule still applies, doesn’t matter that it’s no longer 0.01isk.
If you’re considering not modifying your order because it costs more than 0.01isk, then you’re doing it wrong.
I like your answer, you categorize quite clearly the roles of each .
( But) I see the role of a manufacturer in eve as an opportunist manufacturers , you are chosing the product that at a T moment is the most isk interesting hopping when you are finishing your production the price won’t evolve too much from your prediction .
You could be end up to sell at loss ( if you don’t have the necessary isk to go on your production) that could be bought by anyone else ( other “well-informed” manufacturer ) who will play the trader’s role in your model.
Nothing prevent a “pure trader” that buy his stock cheaper than the BO to sell it at any moment ( particularly the one that hoard products when they are at low peak) .
An opportunist manufacturers ( all usually are) is a trader in my book 
And with these changes, it would be very difficult to take advantage of low sell or high demand because everyone will try to get its share in a really small time frame .
This is an important observation of production chains in EVE. I dabbled in industry but stuck to things that produced fast. I kept my blocks to “circa 1day chunks”…so everything I was doing could be priced daily.
Andersen_Geten(?) seems to have mastered long-time production chains and could probably shed light on how that appears in the market.
I know a lot of them always talk about moving away from hub markets.
So it’s quite possible that such a game-style choice can’t accommodate Jita production lines?
This is an interesting observation, because by the theory mentioned above, for a low-price to form, there must be a gap forming between producer and consumer such that a trader can step in.
Basically (as we all know), the producer doesn’t cut production before the bottom drops out of demand and there’s an over production.
The trader steps in to assume the risk, and expects to trade their stock as demand rises, before Production builds.
By doing so, the trader slows-down future production…selling off already saved past-production.
In this sense…the trader bridges the gaps between market-distortions.
I agree but the role are not that separated .
You can ,while pve-ing, manufacturing, inventing, mining, exploring …, trade with the right distance trade skill .
The trader role you are mentionning was just killed by CCP , you can’t do the “BO -> SO” loop anymore
because of the lack of margin even before the changes the time frame was 2-3 hours
when the gap was very good ( station trader) .
The smoothing trade role ( known as flatten the curve between demand and offer I think is over .
The only ways are distance trading ( from A to B) or time delay trading ( from 1 week to several month ),
with the caveat : any time windows opportunities will shrink quicker than before .
It will be now more difficult to have a profitable high peak
( too many traders sit on stocks, undercuted each other to the bitter end )
and when low peak ( if aware) , only those with deep pockets can afford to invest .
On top of that, CCP made forecasting very difficult ; you can’t rely on past data to predict what will happen “soon” -> see the plex case .
If you are trading by delay time sell , it is easy now to sit on your pile of … for a long time.
That’s the CCP definition of chaos, I guess .
I don’t trade very much. (TBH, I don’t do anything in EVE very much, lately.) Any trading I’ve ever done is along the lines of “find something I can acquire for X and sell for X+20% or higher”. Then I get it, stick the order up, and check it once a week or so. If it’s still close-ish to the top, I leave it. If it’s dropped so far behind that it has no chance of selling in the next week, I update the price. If the current price falls below X+10% I also leave it, because it’s not even worth selling at the low margin.
Pretty low management stuff but it’s earned me more than a few billions over the years. Watching the desperate little traders and bots .01 ISK their way into lower and lower margins every 5 minutes all day long was kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time.
The current market looks to me (as an outside observer), that it will now become more essential to observe a market and learn how much moves, at what prices, and at what times. Then you are going to want to post amounts that you know will likely move in the next 2 days before the price changes too much. If it goes 3 days without selling, it might be worth re-pricing. If it goes another 3 without selling, it means you priced it wrong or you didn’t understand how much that market turns over and at what times.
Either way, the trading game seems to have changed from short term micro-management to a longer term view and a requirement of understanding turnover rate and buying trends.
If that’s not your up of tea, it’s time to switch brews.
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Not really, just a pile of market slots.
Short term, low volume.
…Basically all that changed for me is that I need to use a TON more slots to accomplish the same goals. I rarely station trade in a traditional fashion, if I SOs way over market I’ll take a shot at those big margins, likewise when I see BOs that are out of bounds (which happens pretty regularly)
The rest is moving low volume niche stuff and inputs on buy.
But like I said where I used to average maybe 35-50 SOs and maybe 10-15 BOs, those numbers have spooled to about 150 SOs and 40-50 BO all in week or less low volume quantities so I can actually react to market surges and droughts.
I have never sat there one isking, I only reprice to play with the volume things are moving.
All these changes do is push the little guy that doesn’t have a dedicated market all with 300ish slots out.
So do me a favour and tell me. How long to train each market skill to V and how many slots that gives you.
Because I’m betting pretty big it’s not a long train in the scheme of EVE.
Nah if you got 8 months or so its easy.
…again, the small guy gets jacked.
I would agree that it appears the smaller, newer, and less experienced traders will be disadvantaged in the current system. It also looks like the current system would lead to less turnover in buy/sell orders.
Whether these two consequences (among others) will be good or bad for the overall game remains to be seen.
Real numbers. Not just your vaguest estimate. Though expecting to be a market mogul in just 8 months sounds a bit entitled anyway.
A player needs around 9.5 million SP to fully learn all trade skills to level V. The rate of learning without any remaps or implants is 0.5 SP/sec, so it will take around 19 million seconds (7 months). Of course the number will be lower in practice, since not every trade skill is useful for station trading, and remaps with implants do exist.
Feel free to log in and put it in your queue. I know how much time I spent on my market alt. Prove me wrong or STFU.
I already have most of them so wouldn’t have been much use doing that. Also Ugren was the one claiming 8 months.
Doing a quick check on Ugrens maths I get 115 days at max training rate. And if someone is planning to become a market mogul I don’t think +5s are unreasonable, nor do I think it’s reasonable to point at 4 months of skills including the non station trader skills as a reason why someone can’t compete.
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EVE IS BROKEN I CANT FLY A TITAN FLEET AND CONQUER ALL OF NULLSEC WITHIN A WEEK OF CHARACTER CREATION NERF SKILL REQUIREMENTS.
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Just tried to make discussion more constructive. Onictus claimed 8 months, I just made a worst-case estimate to see if it would be close.
I’m trading with 37 slots total, and about to break 7bil assets… \o/
You are actively trading or just selling stuff ?
On my side I just get rid off stuff , I can’t say this is trading, I just want to convert them into isk to face the new opportunities .
What I see on my usual products that I trade ( so not the one I am selling) a real decrease in price .
plex, extractor … at a record low level .
any item sold with some trade resistance end up with a BO 10-20% less than before the change.
As if a new pricing system is being put , suppressing the “old” .
The new prices is lower than before.
That is my conclusion after a week of observation on a pannel of 40 common products .
A bear market …
So what you are saying is items that aren’t manufactured and have historically gone through like 4 or 5 traders before reaching a user might actually not be going through so many middlemen first?
And you are trying to say that this is a bad thing. The plex prices were being driven pretty much entirely by traders in an upwards direction. something stopping that is great.
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