(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
21

Create a middle ground.

I mean this in the literal sense, and I’ll explain how.

As already noted by Captain Shutaq, the number of enslaved Minmatar in the Empire is enormous. They’re a Nation on their own. Simply removing them from the Empire and moving them into the Republic would be devastating for both sides. We also cannot ignore the fact that many of them are “Reclaimed”, and devout believers in their own right. This would also serve to create further friction, as the Republic’s citizens may reject them and the Empire may attempt to use protecting them as a way of further influencing the Republic.

So it seems to me to be obvious that we cannot directly move them from one Empire to the other, not even on a vastly extended time frame.

We also cannot maintain the status quo, as in the long term it is problematic for both sides.

Here then, is my proposal.

The problem of military conflict between the Republic and the Empire is focused on a few select systems, known as “The Warzone”. These systems are found entirely in the lowsec parts of the Metropolis, Heimatar, Devoid, and The Bleak Lands regions.

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Close by, connected to both Devoid and Heimatar, is the Ammatar Mandate held region of Derelik. This region has, under the instruction of the late Heir Yonis Ardishapur, recently undergone an immense restructuring and infrastructure upgrade. The new heir, Arim Ardishapur was also heavily involved in this project and seems eager to continue his uncle’s work. This means the Mandate has never been better suited for a period of growth, as well as to defend itself.

My proposal to end the Amarr-Minmatar conflict is based heavily on the potential involvement of the Mandate. I would extend the Mandate’s borders considerably, moving both the regions of Devoid and The Bleak Lands under their control. At the same time, I suggest the borders between Metropolis, Heimatar, and the newly Mandate controlled regions be de-militarized. The line would be drawn at the connecting gates between Kurniainen and Isbrabata, Kourmonen and Auga, and Ezzara and Vard. All space on the Devoid and Bleak Lands sides of these gates would be considered Mandate property, all space on the Metropolis and Heimatar sides would be Republic owned.

The regions of Devoid and The Bleak Lands are comparatively small, and relatively poor. The Empire receives no great financial or economic benefit from their ownership, an effect amplified by the constant fighting that takes place within them. However, when considered from the perspective of a potential home for trillions of people, they are suddenly much more attractive. The Bleak Lands contains thirty four temperate worlds, while Devoid has fifty six.

Ninety habitable worlds. With over a hundred more in Derelik. Two hundred and four in total. Even if they were the only habitable spaces available in all three regions, not counting other planets, not counting stations, not counting starbases, and citadels, and ships, and on and on, even without any of those things… 52 billion people is a lot for a world, but it’s doable. It can work. Even that is assuming they all choose to stay.

So, the New Mandate. Now a formidable nation in it’s own right, comparable to the Republic in size, with the technology and tradition of the Empire providing it with a ready made platform for success. This changes things, this really upsets the balance of power in the South and East of Empire space. So how do we keep the table fair. We need to be sure the Empire won’t try to use the Mandate for its own ends, and we need to be sure the Republic won’t take the opportunity of a weakened Empire to get revenge for the past thousand years.

I suggest two things.

First, I’m sure the Empire wouldn’t be thrilled with this, but it would need to happen. Give the New Mandate a seat in Yulai. Sign the Accords. Official recognition as an independent state. Bring in leaders, policy makers, advisers, whatever, from both the Republic and the Empire. Develop a system of Government, perhaps a spiritual leader backed by a tribal council. Maybe Arim would like to be Emperor a bit early. Hold elections. Do something. Become a nation.

Second, open borders to both the Republic and the Empire. Border checks for those leaving the Mandate to either, but allow free movement from either into the Mandate. The whole concept, the whole problem of “freeing the slaves” is the culture clash between the Amarr religion and the Tribal spirituality. Use the Mandate as a place where ideas can be exchanged, and horizons can be broadened.

So, to recap.

We can’t give the Republic all their people back, it would cripple the Empire and crush the Republic.

We also can’t let the Empire keep them all, or there will never be a hope of peace between the two.

My solution is to take all the slaves of Minmatar origin, and give them their own chance at living the way they want to. With the religion they want, or the tribe they want.

A true Ammatar People.

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22

This seems the most reasonable thing anyone has suggested for a while. Both sides would need to commit to supporting the new endeavour with necessary aid.

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23

Slaves make up the majority of Amarr’s labor force. A mass emancipation, on the scale of some 20 trillion people, would require most of those people to remain in the Empire as free citizens. Otherwise you’d be depopulating 40-50% of the Empire’s entire population. The logistics of moving that amount of people would be absurd. The repopulation efforts from Jamyl’s proclamation were already excessive, and that was, what, a few billion? Less?

There’s also the fact that the Bleak Lands and Devoid aren’t some free territory that you can just scoop up on a whim. That territory is owned by a cornucopia of Holders who would not take kindly to being told they have to give up their land. Especially when you are proposing that the Republic doesn’t have to give up any of its own territory on the other side of the warzone.

You’d also be shoving all of these people into a ghetto. “Instead of living as free citizens in the Empire, or as tribal members in the Republic, you get to go try and make a living in a barren wasteland as your own nation.” People who, mind, have in many cases no understanding of how to live on their own. It’d be an utter mess and awful for the people actually forced to live there.

No, freeing people is a matter of local legal status, not creating some massive new nation of refugees. You’re vastly overcomplicating it. If freed, they need to remain in Amarr as free citizens of Amarr (unless they choose to leave and go to the Republic), building new lives with local housing and local work in Amarr (all of that would have to be adjusted to account for the elimination of slavery as an institution anyway). The Republic would not care if these people stayed in the Empire as long as they are free. The Republic doesn’t want to deny the Empire people, or to receive trillions of new citizens, it just wants those people to be free.

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I am proposing only about half that number be freed. Just those of Minmatar ancestry. I’m not even proposing the Amarr end slavery as an institution. Just end the slavery of ethnic Minmatar.

The Empire controls 8 regions, the Republic controls 3. Exactly which space would you suggest the Republic gives up? I’m sure across the Empire’s 6 remaining regions they could find somewhere for the inhabitants of some of it’s most sparsely populated space to relocate.

This is actually why I picked the Mandate. They have recent experience with rebuilding at a regional level, work which was so considerable in scale that, (and I quote), “slave labor was unable to meet demands”. There would be hundreds of millions of jobs created by the work required to turn these regions into habitable spaces for a major population. The Mandate themselves have considerable experience with Faithful Minmatar. The new inhabitants would not simply be left on their own but supported by the existing framework of the Mandate, and I’m sure aid from many if not all of the other Empires. I’m sure the Caldari and the Gallente would leap at opportunities for trading with a new power.

Your last paragraph I actually largely agree with. I feel, however, that there is simply too much cultural and racial bad blood for the Republic to be satisfied with “they’re free but they’re still ours”.

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I think you’ll find that once free, we consider them their own. Forcibly plonking them down on some alien (to them) worlds while depriving them of any familiarity and security, and depriving their current homes of them… that’s an utterly unacceptable violation of the freedom we are demanding for them in the first place.

It’s one thing to find places for those we have to emancipate by force, as there simply is no other choice. It is another entirely to immediately undo the very thing we’re fighting for by imposing a new chain and collar upon free men and women.

No, dread kin Samira is right on this one. The Republic doesn’t have the courage to take a proper stand as things are now, what makes you think it’d suddenly grow ballsy when our people are finally free to make their own choices?

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What do you mean?

I will edit to add;

My intention was not to suggest that the freed slaves would be immediately beholden to the Mandate and unable to travel elsewhere. That was the entire purpose of me including the section on open borders and fairly unrestricted movement. The idea is not to force people to live somewhere but to give them the choice. Let them choose between the Empire, the Republic, or neither. Let them make a new life in freedom wherever they wish it.

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The sizes really don’t matter for the argument. No proposal that expects the Amarr to give up even more territory to Minmatar (those 3 Republic regions are also former Amarr ones, afterall) would ever be approved by Amarrian officials. Heideran was sharply criticized just for informally legitimizing the Republic’s sovereignty through CONCORD admission.

On the off-chance that it did happen, it would never come with the declaration of an independent Mandate. The territory would remain Amarr, with Amarr rulers. The Amarr would not give up something for nothing. And if it is going to remain Amarr, they wouldn’t go through the hassle of relocating people to begin with, though local Holders may offer economic incentives if they personally wanted to try wooing people over to build up their territories. That would be a much more likely way of building up this region. Much smaller than relocating trillions of people, but still helping to build up an underpopulated territory with an infusion of Minmatar workers.

That work required considerable investment and leadership from the Ardishapur Family. Do you expect that this (second) independent nation of Minmatar would get that kind of investment or guidance? I don’t. The Amarr certainly wouldn’t provide it, not when they’re losing a significant chunk of their work force and some territories, nor would the Gallente since they’ve already put too much money into the Republic’s development. The Caldari maybe, but they’re still paying off their debts to the Empire (I also expect they’d prefer offering incentives for these displaced Minmatar to move to the State and find employment there, to build up Black Rise instead).

I’m sorry, but I just don’t see anyone that gains from this. Except, perhaps, the Angel Cartel.

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Well, I accept your points as valid counters to my idea. I’ll admit it was something I pretty much came up with as I was writing it. Aren’t you glad I didn’t just screech “No peace!” though? :grin:

I will attempt to answer your points anyway.

I wouldn’t consider a cessation of hostilities with the Republic and the chance for trade and partnership with a whole new Empire as “nothing”. Giving tens of trillions of people the chance to live lives as they wish also provides much greater chances for further education, innovation, and progress in a wide variety of fields. Who’s to say that a slave working as a scribe might not produce a work of literary genius as a free woman? Or that a slave plowing the fields couldn’t develop a new understanding of physics if given the chance as a free man? Sharing a religion and a border with a large, friendly, nation would provide many benefits for the Empire.

This is a fair point, and “where does the money come from” is certainly one of the biggest questions.

Personally, I would propose a joint venture between the Mandate and capsuleers, overseen by CONCORD. Capsuleers have more money than we know what to do with, and I can think of plenty who’d be willing to provide some financial aid in return for access to some nice Mandate tech. Our ISK is certainly valuable enough to put a decent dent in the initial costs.

I wouldn’t know what you mean.

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29

I concede that it is a better idea than a slightly taller wall with tassels on it.

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I just thought I’d quote this bit because it is an interesting assertion.

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Considering Mizhara’s historic “they’re better off dead than slaves” attitude, I find her assertion that “they’re better off slaves than somewhere else” to be rather odd.

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Odd indeed, since to my knowledge I have never said anything even close to the latter. What exactly are you misunderstanding here, I wonder? Edit: I mean, I’m assuming here that it is an actual misunderstanding, unlike the Blonde Moron’s poor attempt at removing context.

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Kala, I think open borders between the Mandate, the Republic and the Empire is a good idea. It is much better than this fool notion of ‘Eight Tribe’ I was entertaining for a long while.

I still think that we should incorporate a gradual emancipation plan with a clear duration and deadline. Too much change too fast will result in a hostile reaction and we should avoid this at all cost. Ease the transition.

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Emphasis mine.

They are slaves in their current homes, are they not?

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Thank you. I certainly think it is the strongest (and most likely) part of my own idea.

I also wouldn’t describe your “8th tribe” idea as ‘fool’, it certainly influenced my own opinion. Perhaps a single tribe with the potential to grow as large as all the rest combined might not be such a good idea however :grin:

Whatever potential solution might be agreed upon, I think we can all safely assume it won’t be something that happens quickly.

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Currently, certainly. The scenario we’re discussing however, would be one where emancipation is in effect, no? The reason we currently have to relocate them into more civilized lands and inflict temporary hardships upon both them and the economy of their destination is because it’s the only way to free them. If the Empire abolishes slavery, this becomes not only unnecessary but in many cases it’d be detrimental to everyone involved.

Many of these people are home. Born and raised in the Empire, and assimilated into the culture and the faith. Amarr in all but blood. While many would finally be able to thrive and return to the home their spirits yearn for and to be embraced by their tribes and clans, it’d be ruinous for both nations and cruel beyond measure to force this upon those who are already home when it is unnecessary.

Once freed, that implies free to stay and live their own lives. Not one imposed upon them. This is just currently not an option.

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So you agree with me.

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We aren’t denying them the option to stay in the Empire. The point is that they have the choice to go over to the Republic and embrace our ways, stay in the Empire as a free citizen or go over to the Ammatar Mandate and become Ammatar. Whatever it is, they are not slaves anymore.

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I don’t particularly agree with either of you, no. You’re staking this upon an unbelievably unrealistic scenario and plan, which on top of being unrealistic ensures that significant amounts of those who remain Matari in spirit will break and die while waiting for this “solution” to happen.

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I think this is an often overlooked aspect of freeing slaves. I was trying to formulate an argument along those grounds but I think I’ll build off of this instead.

Freeing slaves and allowing them full participation in one’s economy could be very beneficial, at least in the long term. Reparations would have to be made, naturally, but those would be the short term costs of eliminating slavery. Give the former slaves the power and control to educate themselves and determine their own fate while making sure they’re adequately funded to do so. Minmatar who choose to stay, and the Empire may be surprised how many may choose to stay rather than leave, will need fair representation in the political system.

The Amarr Empress can probably find scriptures that support the emancipation and that would also support the idea that the Reclaiming was successful after all. Scriptures are funny like that. It would then be the job of the priests to spread this revelation to the Amarr faithful.

It’s possible that freed Minmatar would comprise the fastest growing economic sector in the Amarr Empire, rather than a sink. It would require courage and good planning on the part of the Empire though to see this through. One thing that the Amarr may have over most of the other factions is the ability to plan long term. I can’t see any reason why the Amarr Empire would not succeed in this if they set their mind to it and plan properly. They could easily give the Republic everything they’re demanding and still come up strong.

Is a touch frightening, really. Unfortunately, I’ve glossed over a lot of details here, some of it due to ignorance on how things work in the Empire. Perhaps this is an impossibility in the mindset and worldview of the Amarr? Also, the Amarr aren’t the monolith they present themselves as, evidence of which we’ve seen several times in the forums. Competing interests may scuttle the Empire’s best and most sincere intentions.

The more I write in this the more complicated I see it is. Not impossibly so, but there are definitely challenges. So, I think I’ll stop here and think about this some more. In the meantime I expect my above posting will receive critique and possibly be torn to shreds.

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