(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict

I don’t personally agree with the exile thing, though I understand the reasoning. And sure, I also understand why people from other cultures consider it …cruel, to say the least.

However, for it to be a fully equivalent comparison in this discussion, Minmatar would need to have an unhealthy desire to make each and every human in the known galaxy go through the Voluval and then shun with extreme prejudice those who “fail” it. Obviously, that is not the case.

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nihilism is far from an easy faith not that i uphold it yet to modelate the universe as a something which the brain can not think is going to lead to interesting outcomes and philosophical insights.

for me personally nothing is a thing something that exist otherwise the room could not be a room and space not be space. nothing is a spiritual element. emptyness and void are its child.

for the amarr such thougts might be inacceptable.

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@Valerie_Valate were you conflating the Minmatar practice of exciling persons with “evil” tattoos with the Amarr Reclaming practices? That’s not what I got out of it, but could you clarify please?

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No, it was intended as an answer to solely this question:

The insistence that people must have a magic tattoo in order to be a full member of Minmatar society, the ill-treatment of people whose magic tattoos appear in a shape that the authorities disapprove of, these things make any rational person raise one or more eyebrows.

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We will listen, consider and weight all merits to make the most logical conclusion about rationality and profit that can bring this offer. I can’t guarantee anything else.

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S’funny, 'cos the last time another power tried to politically convert and incorporate the Caldari it started a war you are still fighting today.

Are you ready to start another?

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No they aren’t. thats why appeasement is employed with regards to them.

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All is true !!!
The war was lost against the Republic.
The best ruler lost in August 21/08/117

Let’s now talk about peace and friendship of peoples. Loyalists what rags you are. So you want the False Empress Сatiz to give Aidonis
Yes, let’s forget how the Federals support terrorist movements inside the Empire.
Yes, let’s forget all that Jamyl Sarum did for the victory.

And they call us heretics! Noticing that they are mired in heresy by profaning the holy writings, and closing their eyes to the fact that some who take the title “holy”

Yes, this Empire can not be saved.
Purification through destruction !!!

now that reminds me of a proberb irony is like a steering wheel us to drive a ship over a riff.

So, anyone else with valuable insights for tangible, non-violent action on these matters? Or are you all still content to thinking war and genocide are the only paths forward? I still haven’t heard a word on my last suggestions yet, or are you saying we are not allowed to practice our culture even in a peaceful manner?

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Pray tell, how is a culture aiming for the dominion of all mankind compatible with “peaceful manner”?

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Not domination, enlightenment and unification. Domination has thus far been the method, however. I am trying to find ways to turn that method away from domination, and instead towards discourse and leading by example. I feel that the institution of slavery has long been degenerating into a hindrance to the stated goals of the Reclaiming, and am in favor of reform. The question is, would Minmatar even consider the time and effort required to do that without destroying the Empire utterly? I know you will not, but surely there are others who are more reasonable.

You mean the time and effort required to break the Matari spirits remaining within your borders? No, that’s not exactly something that’s a priority at this point. The simple fact of the matter is that you’re wildly exaggerating this. Your Empire could emancipate them all tomorrow and still survive just fine. The majority will remain exactly where they are, so the workforce wouldn’t suffer too much and three quarters of the cluster has been working on potential economic models and aid that could be delivered the very same day. It’d be painful and difficult, and it’d have a lot of negative consequences, but it’d hardly be an existential threat.

The Caldari would leap at delivering modernization of industry and consumer goods deals to the new economy, for even minor concessions in debts. Even the Republic would help provide relief in the hopes of turning this emancipation into something real rather than weaponized PR stunts like Jammies pulled.

Of course, my priority is not the Empire’s survival. I’m pretty sure it’d be far better for all other nations in New Eden if the Empire burned to the ground. However, your approach is disingenuous at best. You seek to get out of your Nation’s unfathomable crimes with no pain or even discomfort, while ensuring it takes long enough to break those who deserve freedom, and remaining a massive threat to the rest of the cluster.

That… is not merely unreasonable, that’s delusional.

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while i wait for my data transfer to a fresh carrier and have my five minutes coffee pause before the magnetic catapult calls just a question to the thread opener and the white haired sebiestor, if you are so intimate at throwing niceties at each other did you ever consider you sound like some reluctunt couple?

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Well, I just heard the shriek of either an enraged slaver harridan harpy, or possibly her fluffy haired victim losing his genitalia. This thread delivered.

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The Amarrians haven’t tried to enslave the Caldari, though. If they did then we would be more than willing to start another war.

The fact that the Amarrian’s have plans to enslave us when possible is an awkward sticking point in our relationship that prevents us from becoming friends - but when one asks a Caldari or Amarrian Loyalist if that was ever the point of the alliance, we are pretty forward about saying that it was not.

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No, I do not mean that. I have already conceded that I would be willing to begin emancipating unconverted Minmatar as part of a lasting peace deal with the Republic. I’ve stated as much several times in this thread. I would not, however, be willing to do so without robust concessions from the Republic in return because I know full well the notion would garner extreme resistance within the Empire unless something was rendered in return.

No, it could not. Part of the purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that this position is utterly delusional, even ignoring the internal state of the Empire. However, since you bring it up, and are still under the impression that autocracy means that single decrees from the right people is all it takes to make something happen, let’s delve into it.

An immediate emancipation order, even from the Empress herself, would result in a civil war. And it would be a very brief one at that, as the opposition would be overwhelming.

You remember Jamyl I’s decree well. That demonstration of peaceful and merciful intent you call a weaponized insult? There was a movement to refuse the order by many Holders, despite the relatively small numbers of slaves freed, and the clearly deserving nature of 9th generation Minmatar. Chancellor Articio Kor-Azor, the man I supported to ascend the throne of the Empire, was sent to quell the resulting rebellions in no uncertain terms. We killed our own people to free yours, something you consistently and conveniently forget every time you mention events from that time. I call this ungrateful and willful ignorance. I would call it much worse, but then I would begin breaking the rules I myself laid out for this thread.

You remember the Purity of the Throne rebellion also, as I do recall your giddy revelry as we had to put down yet another movement in resistance to progress within the Empire. Once again, we killed our own people so that we might move forward and better find the place of those with emancipated blood within our Empire. As it’s been proven, that place extends all the way to atop the Throne of Amarr. The Rite is proven true to its word for all people of the cluster to see, and I personally helped do so with every Purist ship I obliterated without prejudice.

Now, imagine the rebellion that would result from freeing every Minmatar slave, overnight, given by an Empress that already has conservative resistance against her merely due to a fraction of her bloodline. I would fight to enforce that decree if it ever came, but I know full well I would lose. However, I’d rather not have to fight a losing battle just because you and so many of the rest of your people are too proud to realize the consequences of such an act. Of course, you have no interest in realism; you want whatever will destroy the Empire so you can watch with perverse glee. You are the worst culprit for debating these things in bad faith, so you needn’t go on.

No, it is not. Your very presence in this thread is disingenuous. I offer a place to find common ground and demonstrate we on each side of this conflict are human and alike in our desires for good, yet you come here with the sole purpose to undermine that effort and defame my person.

My actions speak for themselves. I have fought tirelessly my whole life for a better Empire for all people. For a better galaxy. I am sorry for what my Empire has done to both you and your people, but I am not going to apologize for trying to make it right in my own way.

It is not delusional to believe peace can be achieved between our peoples. It is delusional to believe that it must not come to pass.

Now please, get out of my thread.

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We do not have plans to enslave you. We do have plans to annex you peacefully after many millennia of cooperation. No one in their right mind would want to start a fight with you.

Judging from all that you say, there would not be a concession big enough to not have the conservatists riot and disregard orders. And the Minmatar owe nothing to the Amarr for them to right their crimes. The most the Amarr could ask from the Minmatar is forgiveness, which I consider also a tall order, but possible.

“We killed our own people to free yours” sounds very heartwrenching and all, but again, that is in no way the fault of the Minmatar.

Well, this will sound cold, but good. Sorry if I don’t shed tears for those Amarr who, as you imply, represent the worst of you.

For a nation that has strived for “enlightenment and unification” for far longer than the rest of us have had spaceflight, you sure are a contentious people.

Interesting. I do not want to see the Empire destroyed if they can lay off that conquering ■■■■ and release those who do not want to be in the Empire. At this point, that seems a pretty big if, seeing how often the Empire spawns considerably large splinter groups for being progressive and reconciliatory towards those they have wronged.

I do not consider it realism to ask the Minmatar for concessions for the fact that the Amarr enslaved them.

Sincerely, good for you. And good on you for trying to work out a solution. But even you have to see that your propositions sound as absurd to me as it sounds to you that I demand the Amarr to abandon reclaiming.

:thinking:

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This is not true. I’ve already laid out several points that various Royal Houses and schools of thought within the Empire would consider in exchange for what you demand, so long as the benefits were great enough and the timetable for emancipation slow enough.

Then you are in the same line of thinking as the benighted Mizhara and do not need to speak further here. I am trying to deal in the realm of reality, not misguided vengeful spite, to avoid further destruction. If you want revenge more than workable solutions, speak about it elsewhere.

It is not meant to be taken as such, it is mean to show that we are both willing to change and able to enact that change so long as it is manageable. It is also to show how we Amarr can perform emancipation, even by force, far better than any Minmatar with a gun can. You need our cooperation to get what you want. The sooner you understand that, the better.

It does not sound cold, it sounds ignorant. I do not shed tears for dead Purists either, but it is meant to show that the Empire is changing, and in exactly the ways you Minmatar should be glad to see. Yet you choose to ignore these changes so you can continue to feel bitter and angry enough to kill us.

I’m sorry reality is complicated. If you lived in it more often, you should already know this.

Prove it by contributing in a meaningful way, then.

My suggestions are far better than your lazy cynicism, that is for certain. Again, please consider opening your mind long enough to see a different path.