“In the realm of reality” he says. Sanmatars balls! In this “realm of reality” you ask for immense benefits for the Empire, let’s see:
Amarr must be allowed to preach their faith within Republic’s borders AND completely protected from any harm (736 years doing that wasn’t enough?)
Amarr cultural exports must have free passage into the Republic - assumedly, also all propaganda?
Essentially almost no border control. Surprisingly this I have little trouble with - people should be free to go wherever they want so long as they do it of their own volition.
Increased trade. Sounds good on paper, but would benefit the Amarr more. Also there is the problem of goods made by slave labour; I’ve understood this talk of emancipation would not extend to Ealur or any other slaves of the Amarr.
Gallentean help to advance automation within the Empire - well, that is up to the Gallente.
Aid money. (On top of the problem that the Republic would need it more to house, feed and create jobs for its trillions of newfound citizens.)
Minmatar get:
Some of the people that were unjustly stolen, back, with some of them inevitably having completely alien religion, completely alien culture and a distaste for the Republic, courtesy of their education in the Empire.
Sounds to me the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever.
Actually, it sounds more like a hostage situation where the other side needs to fulfill demands for the release of those imprisoned.
I have not called for revenge, not once. I do not in the least desire to see the Empire destroyed - but merely in the realm of realism, it is the ultimate outcome unless the Empire eventually changes it ways. So far your offered solution is just so far, far away from actually being workable, as outlined above.
Not sounding any extortionist here at all.
I’m not sure if this is addressed to me or the Minmatar in general. I’ll assume the latter. Do you not understand the scale of the wound caused on the collective psyche of a people who have been for hundreds of years a target for active erasure of their very beings? Sorry if the Minmatar are bitter and angry. I assure you it’s nothing personal against you specifically.
Yeah, personally I applaud you for your slow slog to progress, but you still have a long way to go, as do the Minmatar.
Oooh that sure showed me.
Define meaningful in this context. I’m trying to show you how unreasonable your demands are, I think that is very meaningful in regards to this discussion.
Heck, I even agree with you and several posters here on a lot of things, such as that forced relocation of unwilling people is dumb - if only the Amarr had thought of that sooner. If only.
Completely up to you to listen to it or not. I thought we were negotiating freedom from bondage, not freedom from information.
Good.
In what ways would this benefit the Amarr more? Your technology and goods are inferior, you have fewer available resources, your economy is less stable and you would have a massive labor surplus after emancipations began. The only thing you could hurt by trading with us is your pride.
Fair enough.
Investment money. You could see a return from it by ensuring it is spent well. For example, you could use the money to build more Minmatar corporate stations in Amarr space and start employing Minmatar without forcing them to leave the Empire. You could partner in business with Holders that are freeing their slaves to help with housing and job creation, in return for profit sharing in their business ventures.
No:
Yes, these are hostage negotiations. We hold your people hostage, but you also hold my people hostage. The Elder Invasion, the Tribal Liberation Force, the Amarr POW’s you torment in concentration camps, the constant terrorist attacks, and the frequent raids that slaughter more Imperial civilians than free slaves. This is the is the reality. These are the evils I want to stop, or at least alleviate.
Now, we can either enter into civil negotiations devoid of anger for past grudges in the interest of healing and getting our security back, or we can try to get what we want from one another by force, killing those we seek to save and each other instead.
These suggestions are not unreasonable; in fact, they are extremely generous as most are mutually beneficial. You simply assumed the worst possible scenario for each of my points, choosing to believe that I was somehow trying to deceive you and other Minmatar into an unfavorable deal. I understand your distrust and lack of enthusiasm for this exercise, but if we are going to have peace we must be open to what it might look like, even in the context of this discussion of purely hypothetical items.
We need to begin somewhere. You will not get everything you want and nor will we. If you have no hope for this process, then why bother with speaking here? I’m sure you actually do hope for the best. But rejecting the other side’s position outright is not an option for you, just as it is no longer an option for us.
One final point I’d like to make. Do we have the right to demand that you give up your tattoo traditions, your animist beliefs, or your tribal structures? If not, why do you have the right to demand we give up the Reclaiming, even if we conduct it peacefully? This seems the height of hypocrisy. You can meet us in the middle here, or you have no place in negotiating. I urge you to at the very least make the attempt to understand this part of us.
I would say being allies with the Empire for the State is a lot like having a work colleague who is a known sex offender: you might be forced to work together but that does not mean you should not be wary where they put their hands.
There really isn’t that much to say except my favourite fleet command. Everyone choose a random enemy target, shoot it until it is dead then choose another one and do the same.
We didn’t start the war. Gallente did that.
And we broke their nose for the attempt. We have won our independence.
200 years have passed since then and Gallente are at it again. Looks like they can’t learn the lesson, maybe we should invade them ourselves and “disarm” them once and forever.
You see, Ms. Chan_aar, we don’t start wars. But when someone invades us, we fight back and make them pay for that.
Well, I have been invited to this thread by a poke from one of the commenters, but I haven’t addressed the main theme, and for this, I bring my apologies, and will address the discussion now.
First of all, I am disappointed at lack of interesting (or actually interesting) ideas in the main post, that I have expected to read.
Second, I have been offering my idea in a different discussion, but… lets be honest, it was more a jab towards Minmatar, who foolishly were demanding to change way of Amarr, so I offered to change the way of Minmatar instead so they could at least feel themselves like ones whom the attack. Worked it or no?.. Probably no, but at least I tried.
But anyway, let us see what really could be done to solve the conflict.
Both sides absolutely must admit that neither of sides should change anything internally - for this is their own business.
The Empire should guarantee that participants of illegal slavery raids will be punished according to the law (better if they will be detained by the Empire and sentenced by the Republic and their laws - since the violation of the law happened on the Republic territory).
The Republic should guarantee that participants of illegal slave-kidnapping(releasing) raids will be punished according to the law (better if they will be detained by the Republic and sentenced by the Empire and their laws - since the violation of the law happened on the Republic territory).
Borders should be restored to the pre-Elder fleet attack condition.
Captured slaves and PoWs by Amarr Empire should be returned to the Republic (even if it was legal enslaving PoWs - they should first be considered as PoWs, unless they have committed war crimes, then they can serve their sentence as slaves).
All captured PoWs and kidnapped slaves by Minmatar Republic should be returned to the Empire. Of course again with the exclusion of those PoWs that have committed war crimes.
So far I have been offering symmetrical and fair propositions, but one moment makes me add one more that will be slight out of the balance, but I still think that it will be just:
Minmatar Republic should bring apologies and pay war reparations both to Amarr Empire and CONCORD for the Elder Fleet invasion on 10 July YC110.
I hope that your peace talks will progress successfully, and yet I shall remind one more time - and to both sides. Please, for the Maker’s sake, for the sake of Winds, your Tribes, your God and everything else you hold dear - DO NOT demand your opponents to change their own way, becase it won’t be a peaceful negotiation attempt, it will be just bullying and will show that you are not ready for peace.
With best wishes,
Diana Kim, Strike Commander,
State Protectorate, CMC,
Caldari State
Kim-baka if you offer your punitive and biased point 7, I would insist on this further point:
Amarr Empire must formally apologize and pay reparations for the kidnapping, torture, forced conversion and murder of tens of millions of innocent Minmatar, for crimes against humanity (in the form of their war of unprovoked aggression against Minmatar) and for the thousand year occupation that resulted in the loss of much of our culture, technology and racial identity.
Sorry Pilot Shutaq but you Amarr, who I would remind you are the ones who originally attacked and enslaved US don’t get to dictate terms. Your people are the criminals here, we are the aggrieved party. As such the onus is upon YOU to make amends to US, not the other way around.
I don’t like agreeing with the hawks of the cluster but it appears the problems are too intractable for there to ever be anything more than the uneasy truce that we have today. Your people will not (indeed, cannot) give up the “reclaiming” and mine will not give up on the trillions held in servitude in your empire.
I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but firstly, this whole conversation operates on the false notion that Minmatar are somehow equally responsible for this situation. What little knowledge there is left of the Minmatar Empire from before the Day of Darkness tells us that Minmatar were a perhaps even naively peaceful people who had no space military to speak of during the “first contact.” People who would have gladly let the Amarr mind their own business had they simply done the same.
What the Minmatar are now is what the Amarr made us. We had no way of becoming free without violence. We have no way of remaining free without threat of violence. Amarr taught us again that violence is a very good answer. Everything the Amarr now suffer from angry and bitter Minmatar is entirely brought up by their own doings. For the record, I do not condone the “eye for an eye” ideology, I do not gain any particular joy of seeing Amarr die and I do not seek the destruction of the Amarr, but my first message in this thread was to tell you two sure ways to end this conflict. I’d prefer a peaceful solution, but that requires a lot more humbling from the Empire and than from the Minmatar.
But let me put on my appeasement and groveling diplomacy hat on for a moment.
I’m actually not worried about people suddenly being swayed by the Amarr message, as I said earlier, other cultures in this cluster are extremely resistant to the Amarr ideology as a whole. It is more the principle behind this proposition - you want to give us a final slap in the face despite abusing us for centuries already. What you’re asking in your proposition is that Amarr should be allowed to try converting the Minmatar people with virtually no opposition. Even if, and that is a giant if, the Tribal council would allow this, guess what - we would also have riots in our hands, especially if these preachers would show absolutely no cultural sensitivity and would for example show up in Pator system. Some areas would need to be completely off-limits.
But you know what, if it were up to me, I would allow imports of religious texts and whatever tools those of the Amarr faith that already live in the Republic need to practice it.
A giant problem in your proposals also is that, as far as I can see, they are entirely one way. For this to be even remotely considerable proposition, you would then need to allow Republic to come teach the Amarrian populace, the emancipated and the remaining slaves of Minmatar spiritualism and also import culturally and religiously important items to the Empire and make sure none of this is violently opposed. Still sound good to you?
If Minmatar technology and goods really are that much inferior as you claim, they would be in far less demand, and Amarr economy would get a giant boon from all the clamouring for superior Amarr goods. And assuming you would get your wish of Gallente help with automation, the Amarr could also offer these more cheaply than the Minmatar can. In this age of mass production machines and materials are cheap, manual labour is expensive.
That is known as an economic takeover, it would collapse the less stable Minmatar economy. So it would hurt us way more than just swallowing our pride.
I don’t understand where this comes from. Those Minmatar who decide to stay in the Empire are more than likely already fully indoctrinated into the Amarr culture and are Minmatar only through their genes. They are Amarr, and it is the Amarr duty to care for them and ensure their wellbeing, in accordance of your own religious texts, are they not? Why would we force those people to come to the Republic?
Glad we cleared this up, this is a hostage negotiation. The Reclaiming, the 24th Imperial Crusade, the slaves you forcefully breed and also Minmatar POW’s you torture, slave raids by Amarr Navy vessels. This is the reality on the other side of the fence. I would also like these to stop.
Civil negotiations would for one be about roughly equal trades. Your propositions thus far are anything but, all take but no give. I have not, and will not campaign for hostile relations with the Amarr. I am merely stating facts you should be well aware of.
They are unreasonable, and from where I stand they look beneficial only to the Empire. You simply wave around the best scenarios possible - without any guarantee that those would actually happen. And yeah, while you specifically might not want to deceive me or the Minmatar with your ideas of fair deals, you are not the Emperor or really anyone of particular note in the Empire. You alone cannot make sure that Minmatar won’t get ■■■■■■ over by the Amarr, again.
Yet that is what you do.
I’m repeating myself; This is operating on the false assumption that these are somehow equal cultural points. Minmatar culture is not inherently harmful to anyone else, it does not mandate that everyone else must be Minmatar. Reclaiming does. There is absolutely no hypocrisy involved here.
If you say you’ll conduct Reclaiming peacefully, does this mean that you will stop preaching to those who do not want to hear it? Does this mean that people are free to leave the Amarr faith? Does this mean that under no circumstances will you not take the stance of forceful conversion, ever again?
If that is what you mean, then I just might tolerate the idea of the Reclaiming. But that is not what you mean, is it?
I think I understand it better than you think. That does not mean I have to agree with it in the least.
You’ll also need to do a lot better than you have already done, before you start talking about meeting in the middle.
Pffft…alarmism. Khanid is practically a part of the Caldari state at this point, so much have they “conquered” us…and that’s just fine. We like the Caldari. They’re civilized. This is a natural and healthy outcome when two nondegenerate cultures meet. Just as it was between Amarr and Khanid.
The Khanids history is a prime example of the sort of reclaiming we do when they are civilized and moral. The Caldari are even more useful to us, proportionately, no offense to the Khanid…but I’m sure they would agree.
Unless you’ve been told that by the Theology Council (and the Empress herself for good measure), you shouldn’t be taking that statement as gospel.
The Empire does change, no matter how much its detractors and enemies insist or try to ensure it doesn’t so that they will always have something to blame for ancient grievances, bad weather and their own hangover in the morning. Not overnight, but it does, as everything should. The Emperor who was alive to allow such atrocities as the scourge of Starkman Prime to take place also recognized Minmatar Republic as a sovereign entity, criminalized the practice of slave raids and helped usher in an era of relative peace that lasted until YC110. Millenia of dogma, overturned by the man you’d least expect to.
Do you think he did so without opposition? That there weren’t voices shocked at his decision to accept the Minmatar Rebellion as a fait accompli and stripping the gunboat diplomacy aspect from the Reclaiming? After all, that was the way things were always done, and he was at no small risk to himself. “Screw the rules, I’m the Emperor” doesn’t go down as well you might think when swimming against the current. A certain Zaragram II found out the hard way, even if his cause was far less noble.
So anyway. I do realize that “why can’t we all get along” is an incredibly naive stance for a capsuleer to have, but I’d love to see it happen all the same, rather than enjoy yet another repeat of this circle of one side demanding the other pay up and repent for the deeds of their forefathers and getting ignored in turn. If even the Emperor could change both himself and the Empire around him, however slightly, perhaps you could allow for some agency for positive change for everyone else, too? And the Reclaiming too, for that matter?
End militia war by our part by sending Imperial Navy in and secure original border. No less and no further. Same time we broadcast message that no other nations should attack IN. Even if they attack, we should not provoke it and remain at the original borders.
Lets continue the new path that Her Imperial Majesty Catiz I started and meet minmatar diplomats.
Your hypocrisy is truly overwhelming. How dare you even move your tongue to call ME a baka, while spewing out such mind-boggling idiocy in the channel?
These Amarr who did that are long dead. You probably should go knock to their graves to ask for apologies and reparations.
So I would kindly ask you to shove your “offers” back into your mouth where they belong and sit silent while adults are talking, because we need to decide how to punish those who are still alive for what they did themselves, and not their long dead relatives.
Sweet Maker!..
Invaders and aggressors are now “aggrieved party”.
I have no idea what is in the mind of this specimen. Here goes in Rella, knocking to doors of innocents, “LEMME ATTACK YOU AND DICTATE YOU MY TERMS!”
Savages are really intolerable. I doubt there will be any progress in peaceful talks while people like that… will stand for the Republic.
Addition to myself. There are no ongoing active conflict between Amarr Empire and Minmatar Republic. Tensions have however gotten easier during the years and it is because of two facts that both side have acknowledgeded.
Minmatar Republic is sovereign nation and major power. This is agreed by the Amarr Empire.
There are and will be minmatar origin slaves in vast quantities during forseeable future. This is accepted by Minmatar Republic.
There are hard liners on both sides, even well known who disagrees, but in general those parts are accepted. If they would get general acception, relations would improve greatly.
All who know and loves me well know that Im always Amarr Empire first. Ours is the race of supreme divinity and enlightement and it is our duty to rule the stars. Im not however willing to extinguish other cultures and people more than it is necessary to secure our superiority in this universe. Right now I see that need is served very well.
Our Empire is vast and great. Slavery has always been part of our system and i doubt it always plays its part on it. Punishment if not otherwise.
Today slavery is so important part of our culture and especially economy that all demands of freeing majority of our slave population are made without thought. It is impossible. Freeing of minmatar heritage slave population is indeed possible, but we need transition time of hundreds of years. I think atleast 300 years of me is required if we start riht now, but pessimist in me suggests 500 years.
Anything less than that is product of imagination and does not consider economical devastation Empire would do to itself.
So, what I am getting from most Minmatar participants of this thread is that stable peace between the Empire and Republic is unfathomable unless the Empire surrenders unconditionally.
Well, when a hound is rabid…
I’ll let someone else propose something that is workable. Otherwise, you can try to argue your points with Diana Kim and Lord Vaari. I tried to suggest something reasonable, but if that is going to be denied completely, then you have more like-minded debate partners.