Aliventi's Giant FW Feedback Thread

Hi CCP and fellow Capsuleers! I am going to create one big thread instead of posting a bunch of little threads. FW is probably the best system in Eve right now, but there are some improvements that can be made to ensure it lasts for a long, long time.

#1: Add LP to the Market

It’s hard to explain how painful selling LP is today. You need to find a buyers, go through a bidding war for the price, coordinate with the buyer across timezones, coordinate with the buyer on where they want you to buy the items, which items, and in what quantities. To simplify this some groups have set up internal auction houses. It’s a mess. It’s frustrating, time consuming to deal with, and it isn’t fun.

Additionally, new players struggle immensely with the LP store. New players don’t understand the economy and how they can integrate in to it. For example, new players don’t understand what a Tempest Fleet Issue is, why it’s demand is high (the war), who would buy it, why Tempest Fleet Issues are only a temporary item worth spending their LP on, how to sell the BPC, etc. Every new player can understand “Fly to [insert station here], right click on the LP in your wallet → Sell your LP on the Market” so they can get new ships and get back to flying in FW. They can learn about the market and the economy over time.

And then CCP is going to add in LP taxing at some point. That’s great. Except all of the groups in Eve that use that feature are going to get more than just FW LP. A large nullsec alliance that has people doing missions in highsec, lowsec, and nullsec are going to end up with LP from dozens of different NPC corporations. Those groups are going to burn out trying to go through the process I listed above for dozens of different LPs.

To simplify this CCP should give each NPC corporation’s LP a unique market ID and allow us to sell it on the market. That way buyers can put up buy orders for people who just want isk to “right click → sell”. If they want a better price and are willing to wait they can put up sell orders. This gives everyone the efficiency of the market and we all gain an increased isk sink through market taxes.

#2: Add the missing Scout ADV 1 and Scout ADV 5 sites

In the Uprising patch notes CCP stated “We have limited access to FW Complexes to make them more granular, tweaking the paradigm to prevent pirate faction ships from dominating “Novice Complexes”. We have also reviewed and updated the access restrictions to complexes overall.”

What CCP meant by the bolded part is they left off the Scout ADV 1 and Scout ADV 5 sites forcing only Scout NVY sites to spawn. CCP should add these sites back in because the Small, Med, and Large sites all have ADV options, but those ADV options are not being dominated by their respective T2 or Pirate hulls. Why? Because most people don’t want to dock up and swap ships between NVY eligible and ADV eligible ships. So they just take the NVY eligible ships into the ADV sites.

CCP succeeded in preventing pirate faction ships from dominating “Novice Complexes” by simply having Scout NVY sites that T2 and pirate ships can’t enter. Not spawning the Scout ADV sites doesn’t further the goal of preventing pirate faction ships from dominating “Novice Complexes”. So add in the Scout ADV 1 and Scout ADV 5 sites so T2 and pirate frigates have a place to fight if people want to.

#3: The Advantage System is a chore
To understand the Advantage System it’s best to read the Development Dev Blog.

I want to applaud CCP for their initial take on the Advantage System. It certainly took a bit longer (about 8 months) for the true problem to reveal itself.

The core issue with Advantage is that it is around Supply Depots/Caches and Rendezvous sites. Supply Depots/Caches spawn several times a day in all Frontline and Command Ops systems. Each Supply Depot/Cache that is destroyed removes 2% advantage from the opposing faction’s advantage.

The problem is that 4+ Supply Depots/Caches spawn every day in every single Frontline and Command Ops system. That means every single Frontline and Command Ops system will generate -8% Advantage, or more, for each faction. The issue is scale. The Minmatar/Amarr warzone has seen upwards of 18 Frontline systems with probably that many or more Command Ops systems. When you take 30 Frontline and Command Ops Systems across a warzone, at -8% Advantage per day for both factions, you get an expected minimum daily Advantage loss upwards of -480% (30 Systems, -8%, two factions = -480%).

The easiest way to undo the expected minimum daily Advantage loss is with Rendezvous sites. Doing the site can take upwards of 10 minutes and respawns every 20 minutes. Completing the site gains your militia 2% advantage. The issue is because the expected minimum daily Advantage loss can grow astronomically with a large number of Supply Depots/Caches spawning across the Frontlines and Command Ops Systems, the number of Rendezvous Sites scales also. To undo the -480% expected minimum daily Advantage loss your need to complete 120 Rendezvous sites across the Frontline and Command Ops Systems. That 1200 minutes of sites (20 hours!), not counting all the time spent scanning, warping, and waiting for the sites to respawn… Every. Single. Day.

I want to highlight that 20 hours is simply to maintain the Advantage across the Warzone. If you want to improve your faction’s Advantage you need to spend even more time doing Rendezvous. So yeah… Advantage is a chore.

My recommendation would be:

  • Remove Supply Depots/Caches and the Rendezvous sites from Eve.
  • Buff the drop rate of the data site items used to create Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts.
  • Add the data site items used to create Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts to the LP Store at a higher cost than getting them from the data sites.
  • Increase the rats spawns on the Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts to once every 2 minutes.
  • Adjust the Advantage gain/loss for Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts to 2%.

What would this look like? Now you can only adjust Advantage in a system through anchoring and completing Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts. This means the chore that is running Supply Depots/Caches and Rendezvous sites is removed. You will see far more fights because the Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts are beacons on the overview that anyone can warp to (vs. the scanned down aspect of the Rendezvous sites). Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts also have an LP payout for destroying them.

I imagine it will play out like this: A faction wants to take a system. They essentially begin a siege of the system to grind out the 50 Propaganda Broadcasts they need to complete to achieve 100% advantage. The other factions discovers this and begins a counter siege of trying to destroy the enemies Propaganda Broadcast while trying to run their own Propaganda Broadcast and Listening Outposts. Once the attacking side has generated enough net advantage they start seriously running plexes. The fights keep going until either the attacking side wins or gives up.

#4: Fix the Neighboring Systems Advantage Bonus

The core issue of Rearguards being potentially faster to capture was fixed in this patch.

#5: Battlefields need adjustments

Yes, seagulls are an issue. People are already getting alts to kill them until CCP puts in a better fix. If it bothers you then you should do the same.

The biggest issue with Battlefields is they aren’t getting the fights they should. Part of the issue is we don’t know where a BF will spawn before it spawns. Advanced warning gives us time to form fleets to contest.

Another big issue is that defensive BFs don’t pay the full amount. People don’t want to fight over a BF that pays 12% of a normal BF. Have BFs pay the full amount and more fights will happen.

I would also love to see an ADV 30 BF with the 250k LP per pilot be added that spawns on the weekends. Let us go all out a few times on the weekends.

BFs were partially fixed in this patch.

#6: Victory Points aren’t visible in the client

Swap the System Capture percentage for a victory point total. The total victory points to capture a system and the victory points gained by completing a site aren’t visable in the client at all. Instead we have a system capture percentage. A no kidding “System has X/Y Victory points towards capture” would help so much.

#7: Create a “Militia” option for contracting

I can make them to my corp/alliance or Public. The issue is the militia can’t access my corp/alliance contracts, and the issue with public contracts is the enemy militia buys the ships. I am not here to sell ships to my enemy. A militia option would be wonderful to allow all the groups in the militia to ensure a steady supply of fit doctrine ships.

#8: Update the FW Agency filters

Turns out this exists, but you can’t limit it to a region. You have to select a distance, [faction of your choice], Frontline, Command Ops, or Rearguard. So this is fixed.

#9: Redo the System Upgrades for FW
You can read about the system upgrades here. The biggest issue is that under the current FW system that removed tiers you will never see a benefit that will exceed the amount of LP donated unless you scale in to the tens of billions of isk on market or on contracts. I think this should work on a more passive system like the SOV indexes. At day 7, 14, 21, 28, and 35 the system gains 10% in each of the system upgrades up to a max of 50%. That way longer held systems will be economically better to conduct business in.

Additionally, the benefits could be buffed. Maybe this could tie in to the advantage system by giving a small passive percentage Advantage buff to longer held systems similar to the current Command Ops bonus. Or maybe even remove the Command Ops bonus and replace it with a flat neighbor bonus that is derived from the System Upgrade level.

#10: Give T1 Dessys the T1 BC links bonus
It would be super helpful to be able to bring links in to the Medium and small NVY sites. Or to not have to rely solely on bringing a T1 BC if you are in a Large NVY but are flying in a cruiser or destroyer sized fleet.

#11: Add the HP attributes to the iHub, Supply Cache, and Supply Depot
No one really knows how much HP these have. Please add this info so we know.

#12: Prevent unfit ships from defensively plexing
Unfit ships are too low risk to be defensively plexing. I don’t know what the solution is yet, but d-plexing is too risk free with an unfit T1 frig.

#13: Update the FW help pages
The help pages are super helpful and easy to link. However, the FW one could do with some improvements. Things like how to direct enlist, the differences between the plexes, explaining the advantage system, explaining the iHub vulnerability system, etc. Bonus points if you move FW to it’s own group instead of being under Corporations and Alliances.

#14: Fix bug IBR-774
I made a bug report.

#15: Improve the mechanics around iHub vulnerability
Today, when you hit the 100% System Capture the system Capture percentage says “Vulnerable” and loses the percentage. Because #6: Victory Points aren’t visible in the client, it’s unclear how close the system is to becoming invulnerable again. Ideally, there would be a small amount of VP buffer that the attacking side could run up to give them time to shoot the iHub. It would be helpful, until system VP can be found in the client, to keep the System Capture and allow it to go above 100%. Without the System Capture percentage info, or knowing if a VP buffer exists, both sides throwing people in plexes the entire time the iHub is vulnerable. That’s a potential huge waste of effort and is frustrating to deal with because we can’t make an informed decision.

#16: Fix EBR-974
I made a bug report about an exploit.

#17: Give a reason for the weaker militas to keep fighting
The challenge is people are in FW for different reasons. Some want isk, some want PvP, some want to RP, some are here until the next best thing comes along, etc. I would try everything above first, but if that doesn’t get both sides to be long term competitive, then maybe there should be campaigns to keep pilots engaged. I think “point of pride” rewards (i.e. Abyssal Arena PvP skins) that show off contribution that isn’t tied to flipping systems would help keep pilots engaged. Maybe CCP launches a campaign that the top frigate solo killers over the next 30 days get a unique faction skin, or the top 10 VP earners get a cool heraldry kit, or maybe there are FW specific “Sea of Thieves”-style commendations people can work towards over the long term that give unique skins, medals, heraldry, etc. as bragging rights.

Essentially, there should be reasons for pilots to undock and work towards something that isn’t directly tied to flipping systems or gaining LP that gives cool rewards to keep a losing militia engaged until they are competitive again. I admit it’s entirely possible this doesn’t fix the issue.

#18: Remove the ability to build and destroy Shipcaster Beacons
A 1 hour RF timer means you can say goodbye to all your beacons if your enemy outcompetes you in any timezone. They will simply RF them all, and by the time they are all RF’d the first ones will be coming out of RF to be killed. Maybe a group will build a beacon for an op, but the shipcaster won’t get any regular use as long as you can destroy the beacons. Min Mil is already planning to roam the WZ during US TZ to kill all the Amarr beacons. I am sure Amarr Mil will do the same to us in EU TZ.

The only way you could get consistent building of the beacons is if the LP gained was profitable, but then it would be farmable with alts.

What CCP should have done is pre-built them, then allowed us to RF them for a few hours, but not destroy them. Any beacons in the other faction’s space are deactivated. Give it enough EHP that shooting it can generate a notification and allow for a response before it goes in to RF. That way a healthy strategic gameplay develops of RFing the beacons when you want to deny the shipcaster to the other faction, but you don’t have the un-fun toxic gameplay of roaming nightly to RF and kill the other side’s beacons.

#19: Allow us to RF the Shipcaster itself
It is absolutely 100% possible that a faction could RF the other faction’s shipcaster if CCP makes it possible to RF. Make it RF for a week or something so it’s really punishing and worth fighting over. Just imagine the fight that would happen if someone tried. It would be so much fun and a huge story. Combined with #18: Remove the ability to build and destroy Shipcaster Beacons and we have an actually fun mechanic that people will engage in.

#20: Allow us to use the shipcaster to go to any system with a beacon at any time
Watch this video. Why does the shipcaster limit the system you can go to, and rotate through them? Even the DevBlog states “The shipcaster will cycle through each of the active destinations every 6 minutes, staying active for a duration of 60 seconds for each location.” That’s frustratingly unusable. No one wants to be limited in the systems they can go to or when they can go there. “Don’t worry. The fight is in System X. We just need to wait 5 minutes for the shipcaster to cycle through several other systems, then we can go play the game!” That shouldn’t be a thing. Getting people to where they want to go as quickly as possible should be the goal. It should allow you to “right click → pick system” and go to the system you want to.

#21: Remove the derived standing penalty for Minmatar/Caldari and Amarr/Gallente
In the patch notes for the 14th of March 2023 it states: “Following recent political developments between the Empires, ceasefires have been declared between Caldari and Minmatar as well as Gallente and Amarr.” If ceasefires have been signed, then we shouldn’t take any derived standings penalties because the factions aren’t at war anymore. For example: promoting in Minmatar shouldn’t harm my standings with Caldari because we have a ceasefire. Same with Gallente and Amarr.

#22: Add an LP tax to NPC corporations to match the isk tax
CCP confirmed the LP Tax on NPC corporations will be 0%. The issue is this gives players in the NPC FW corps an incentive to not even try and find an player run corporation. Player run corporations lead to more engagement and more contribution from players to the militia. Giving players an incentive to not even try and find a player run corporation is bad for the health of FW.

#23: Remove permanent Frontlines until the entire warzone is captured
When one side takes a system that boarders a enemy faction highsec system, that system stays as a Frontline System. This initially was a good idea because no one wants the warzone to be captured and the losing faction has no way back. The issue is these permanent Frontlines bloom the total number of Frontlines and disperses the pilots across too many system in the warzone. About a month ago Minmatar has 12 Frontlines and Amarr had 6 for a total of 18 Frontlines. That’s simply too many. Few fights happened as a result which isn’t healthy for FW.

My recommendation would be to no longer allow systems bordering highsec systems to be Frontlines until the warzone is fully captured. Once the warzone is fully captured then all of the systems bordering highsec become Frontlines.

This would allow one side to push the warzone, focus the pilots on fewer systems for more fights, and if one side captures the entire warzone the instant 6+ frontlines appearing will bring the other faction back in to the fight. It also prevent a faction from not caring about a system because it boarders a highsec system and they will always be able to dock there.

#24: Fix Seagulling BFs
I wanted to not have this one, but it’s getting ridiculous. The seagulls put one set of eyes in the BF, wait for 99%, then warp in 20+ characters in punishers and catalysts and steal a majority of the LP. They didn’t risk and lose any ships in the BF, they didn’t fight for control, they didn’t run the site, but they take millions of LP from those that do. idk the perfect solution (Some way to determine contribution that isn’t easily gamed by the seagulls is ideal, idk what that looks like) but something has to change because you can’t get paid back for losses when the seagulls take a large portion of the LP.

#25: Fix AWOXing
The issue with AWOXing is that a corporation can participate in FW as long as the corporations standing is above 0.0. The corporation standings are an average of its all members’ individual standings. Because it is an average you can have a few non-PvP alts have moderate standings to keep the average up which allows a pilot to AWOX an unlimited number of times without being kicked. i.e. Five alts at 2.0 standing and one pilot at -10.0 averages out to 0.0. The higher the standings of the non-PvP corporations members the fewer you need for the AWOXing character.

Because I doubt CCP is willing to change the corporation standings calculation we need alternative solutions.

Proposed solution:

  • Agressing a militia member should be a crimewatch criminal act.
  • Give the corporation the 24 hour warning as if the corporation fell below 0.0 if any member falls below a -5.0 faction standing. If the member doesn’t get their standing up above -5.0 the corporation is removed if they don’t kick the pilot.
  • Neg wallet the AWOXer the LP value of the ship they AWOXed and send it to the victim. If it actually drops their LP to a negative value don’t send the LP until they gain the LP.

I will add more ideas as they come up.


New LP store ideas:

#1: Faction tackle frigates (Condor, Executioner, Atron, and Slasher)

The issue with the NVY limitations on the sites is nano fleets set up inside and it’s hard to get at them without interceptors. Faction tackle frigates that are faster than T1 tackle frigates with a local rep bonus, MWD sig penalty bonus, and warp/scram range disruption and propulsion jamming cap use role bonuses would be great.

#2: EWAR Resistance Implant set

The Jackal, Spur, Talon, and Grail implants that offer racial sensor strength bonuses are really under used because no one wants to spend the isk on an implant set that at best only applies to one race’s ships. First, I would combine them all into one implant set that gives sensor strength to all ships and is sourced from the Caldari LP store.

I think the pattern of giving EWAR resistance is a good path to go. Halos kind of counter TPs, and snakes kind of counter webs. You could create sets that give resistance to TPs or Webs. I think a set that boosts target range and scan resolution to counter damps sourced from the Gallente LP store, a set that provides neut resistance from the Amarr LP store, and a set that provides resistance to TD and Guidance disruption from the Minmatar LP store.

#3: Other Implant Sets and implants

A set that provides overheating bonus. A set that counters drug negative effects. Flat 1-5% of each resistance hardwiring (1-5% EM resist for example). Maybe even Skill Hardwirings i.e. a hardwiring that gives you ADV weapons upgrades V. There are a lot of great ideas out there.

#4: Faction Command Bursts

Faction command bursts that have the T2 strength, less fitting, but can do two kinds of links would be super helpful. Mainly this would be the case where we run all four kinds of links, but we lose shield link in the fight. If our Info links are fit with Caldari Navy Command Bursts then I can have the info links swap to provide the more critical shield links.

#5: Listening Outposts and Propaganda Beacons

The data sites don’t seem to be providing the items in quantities that are sufficient for a campaign. Allowing a more expensive option of a direct buy from the LP store would make these more available, while still making those that come from data sites still have value.

#6: Faction Capital Mods

The market for faction capital mods sucks. Dark Blood and Domination Capital Mods aren’t available in sufficient supply to be useful. Faction LP stores should step in and provide a more expensive, but more available solution.

#7: Drug BPCs

There is so much more CCP can do with drugs. Warp speed, agility, mass, missile velocity, missile flight time, missile explosion velocity, turret fall off, logistics reps optimal, logistics reps falloff, neut optimal, neut falloff, targeting range, scan resolution, sensor strength, drone velocity, drone optimal, drone falloff, drone tracking, probe scanning strength, probe scanning cycle time, probe scanning deviation, etc.

Even just allowing the Shadow War Slot 14-17 boosters that are in game to be on the LP store would be huge.

#8: More LP store skins
More cool skins.

#9 More Economic Pressure Release Valves
The Molecular Condenser addition to the LP stores in Viridian as a pressure release valve is brilliant. Pretty much anything else you can do make more LP based pressure release valves will be hugely helpful.

#10: Single scan stealth combat probes
Combat probes but they don’t appear on d-scan and self-destruct after a single scan. You will probably need several sets to scan something down.

#11: Remote Assistance Bonused Ships
Today the Scimitar and the Onieros have remote tracking computer bonuses. Someday, CCP will finish tiericide and remove those bonuses. When they do they should create a new set of Remote Assistance Bonused Ships that have bonuses to remote SeBos, remote Tracking Computers , Remote Guidance Computers, and a new Remote Anti-Target Painter module.



Updated with #9: Redo the System Upgrades for FW

One of the thoughts I had for bfs, that instead of making them spawn periodically, that there would be a cap point… say every 5 - 10% advantage points and then a battlefield would spawn in that system. If you win the bf, you could continue to gain control over the system, if not, then your advantage would be knocked down to the bottom of the current tier.

This would force the militias to fight over the bfs, and maybe not be so butthurt about seagulls coming to steal the rewards, because it’s less about gaining the monetary reward and more about the fight.

However, to combat the sea gulling mindset, rewards should be given out first to the top 30 contributors first at full rewards, and then the seagulls can get the scraps afterwards. This should be the case for normal sites as well, just with the 1 and 5 persons respectively.

Updated with #10: Give T1 Dessys the T1 BC links bonus

Updated #3a because I am running propaganda beacons and remembered the rats spawn every 20 seconds. Literally takes so long to run them because the rats spawn way to often.

Added: #11: Add the HP attributes to the iHub, Supply Cache, and Supply Depot and #12: Prevent unfit ships from defensively plexing

Added #13: Update the FW help pages

Added #14: Fix bug IBR-774

Added #15: Improve the mechanics around iHub vulnerability

Updated #1: Add LP to the Market

Added: #16: Fix EBR-974

Some really good ideas in here. I particularly like the faction command bursts.

Added #17: Give a reason for the weaker militas to keep fighting

Added #18: Remove the ability to build and destroy Shipcaster Beacons and #19: Allow us to RF the Shipcaster itself

Added #20: Allow us to use the shipcaster to go to any system with a beacon at any time

Wow, I like your ideas.
I also want to add that your own militia NPC in the plan plex to be appear blue not red. It always bothered me. lol.

Added #21: Remove the derived standing penalty for Minmatar/Caldari and Amarr/Gallente

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Additionally, LP trading between corporations will be enabled, and this will also act as part of the long-term plan of facilitating more of a free and streamlined economy. LP trading will not only work as transfers within an alliance, but also allow groups to directly barter their LP for different resources.

While it isn’t quite LP on the market, CCP is going to allow inter-corp trading of LP in Viridian! That’s a huge win for pilots in and ourside of FW! I hope LP on the market is part of their “long-term plan of facilitating more of a free and streamlined economy.”