[ARC] Large and Heavily Damaged Drifter Fleet Encountered in Hive Complex

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
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Believe me, I had discomfort with what I became when I raised to status as a Capsuleer regarding cloning. But at the end of the day I walk as human being.

Yes the manner in which we are produced bring that into question. But the final result is in fact a human being. If not for the jacks in the back of my neck, I could pass as a normal bystander. I would be seen as a human. Nothing about my clones suggest differently.

My preferred template are my genetics. Once again, my body is not my given one at birth but it is practically identical to it in every manner. I feel comforts le in this skin as if I were it all my life.

Absolutely!

The question is who gives up punching once the first two are exchanged…

Emotions are what make me human. Of course with everything, balance is essential. I cannot let emotions blind me, but I shouldn’t ignore them either. It’s what fuels our passion and desire. It pushes humanity foward.

Much like someone who plants “organ donor” on whatever I.D card they have in whatever part of the cluster. If these people seek to put their body to use even after death - let them.

But for those to have their corpse desecrated after death without any sign of consent. That is despicable.

I put my clones to good use and try to get the most out of everyone of them I can to ensure they’re donation did not go in vain.

The ship is nothing but a tool. Much like a gun or pick axe. A ship is just a tool.

Instead using my hands, my human mind is what controls the vessel. It has no Influence over me for I am its master. I would it how I desire. I can detach myself from it whenever I want.

No, I’m still human even when In control. Because without this human mind in my head. This would be impossible to begin with.

My clone is still that of a human

All disgusting possiblites.

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Have a fun hacked up post again:

[Quote]
Drifter ships shooting capsuleers is not the same thing as attacking civilians. I remember it being the creed of capsuleer life that “you can be attacked, anywhere, any time.” Since you apparently were one of the few people who read my post earlier, did you forget that Drifters have not managed to destroy but a fraction of the capsuleer ships that the CEMWPA conflict or various navies have? And absolute majority of those even seem to happen in Anoikis, class 5 or 6 wormholes, i.e. what can be assumed “their turf”, looking at records right now.

As for attacking the alpha clone facilites; Remember that this technology was acquired from Sisters of EVE, who, according to rumours at least, had developed this cloning technology through the study of captured Sleeper or Drifter technology. Suspiciously, Sisters of EVE scientists seemed to also be involved when the Drifters attacked empire navy convoys carrying them. Something to think about, is it not? I’m also now seriously starting to consider selling my Astero, any takers?
[end quote]

Okay, you got me, foreign powers shooting capsuleer ships without provocation are apparently acceptable. My apologies.
The Sisters have been involved with Drifter tech for a long time & so are the Amarr & the Minmatar (who tend to be overlooked in this area, see Thukker tribe & their wormhole usage)
Considering capsuleer biomass agresses Drifters as well, perhaps not flying a capsule is the best way to prevent any future aggression. Clearly this is not a feasable solution. The fun thing is, if Drifters want our biomass so hard, we would actually sell it or trade it to them by the ton, simply because there is never a shortage of capsuleer biomass. But no, they rather shoot us to get it.
So indeed, you can sell the Astero, but then you are only combating the symptom of the issue, not the core & the core seems to be our capsuleer bodies when it comes to Drifters.
Selling the Astero won’t stop the Drifter shooting you if you carry biomass. You can advocate for a general ban on all biomass for capsuleer bodies (we got different grades, from high quality to low, all from a variety of biomass, from capsuleer bodes for high grade to simple plant & animal biomatter for very low grade clones) but this too is not feasable.
So the only real solution? Find a way to communicate. Ball’s in their camp tho, many tired communication & failed, some still try (like you) & hopefully continue. But we’re not getting responses.

[quote]
Maybe, because the third time was different? Gathering in plain sight, damaged vessels and no signs of aggression? The two times it happened before was without warning and startling efficiency.
[end quote]

No discussion there, the third time it was indeed different. If the Drifters contacted us, we could have avoided it. but alas, it’s hard to take chances when the previous times it was Form fleets: attack
So why would they be given a chance when a strike could be organized before they got dangerous?
In hindsight it is indeed easy to tell this is very different, but alas, hindsight has this very annoying feature of becoming obvious after the fact.
But when a foreign nation appears with a fleet & it builds up over time. Do you wait until they are ready? Or do you strike before they become too big to handle? Especially if you know they attacked before.
Unless you find the notion of 40 alien battleships (who have shown aggressive behaviour in the past) hoovering in densely trafficked systems non-threatening.

Honeslty, all of this could been avoided, if the Drifters just contacted us. A mere help! or danger! would helped alot in knowing upfront something’s amiss, ebcause wheter happened, it sure as hell affected a ton of Drifters, enough to cause concern really.
If they didn’t do that thing of unnannounced attacks, things could been alot more different.

[quote]
[inside quote]
but according to many folks here, we should been future-predicting psychics, able to foretell that the third time Drifter fleets enter known space, they wouldn’t be outright hostile.
[inside quote end]
Ugh. Really? I mean, you make a lot of sense and seem more sensible than most, but then you say something like this. No, that is not what I meant at all. I can’t speak for Woodrow, Arrendis or Mizhara, but that is not what I meant at all.
[end Quote]

This is a tad bit unfair, you’re one of the reasonable ones & the quoted part did not address you. But it does show why I hate discussing things on IGS (outside the awful comm software)
You mentioned the Drifters are a threat. Think most can agree on that.
You also enjoy more peaceful contact with them instead of blowing them to smithereens. I love to do this too, but their past actions when they form fleets don’t instill me with confidence. Hence I did not object to the destruction of their fleets, simply because previously? they showed no hesitation to blow us apart with their fleets. Why give them a chance the third time?

However, we now know it’s different, because nowit is confirmed that the same behaviour has been observed to been repeated twice.

[quote]
Didn’t say it was. Though, they could actually take the opportunity to study non-aggressive drifters extensively when the situation presents itself.
[end Quote]

Taking chances in a densely trafficked system? (Rens/Sirppala) Somehow, I don’t feel comfortable with that, especially if there’s no available information.
We now have the information they don’t attack outright, so a different approach can be taken next time. Their damaged nature & the fact they give up after suffering heavy casualtires does indicate they could be more open to reason. If we could only communicate with them in a way… then all this bloodshed wasnt’ needed in the first place…
Now we just have to find on what they react to, that doesn’t lead to them firing their weapons.

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As is a clone ultimately. Once the clone is lost in combat it’s nothing more than a humanoid blob of biomass. It is not (and never really was) you. It is a mannequin that we use to host us as we have become more (or less depending on your point of view) than human.

This leads me to believe that Drifter hosts are purely that, the simplest most effective form to host a Drifter Infomorph. This tells us two things: They need a humanoid host for some reason and they don’t have current Empyrean human sensibilities with respect to form. Function is what matters most.

Even the Jove retained mainly human form, so for me this indicates that the Drifters are either something else, or Jove minds that have simply evolved to hold no care for current human aesthetics or emotions.

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Those self loathing rejects mutilated their very psychology! They did not “evolve” but instead used twisted technology to forcefully change themselves. They ripped certain emotions out of themshlves for deeming them “unsuitale” in some foolish stride to become “Perfect”.

The Jove abandaonded their humanity long ago. They became…The Jove.

But it matters not, that disease took care of them and if there are any survivors. Hopefully they learned their lession.

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I just hold them to the same standard as other infomorphs we know, nothing more, nothing less. Capsuleers shoot eachother without provocation or for the stupidest, utterly inscrutable reasons all the time. So, yes, according to these standards it is acceptable, and again, is outright a rare occurrence.

I wouldn’t consider it a farfetched idea that the Minmatar have monitored the Amarr in Anoikis and done the exact opposite of what they did.

Maybe they haven’t thought of that. Anyone suggested it to them? Though, they probably do not use ISK, and they seem rather reluctant to part with anything we would consider of having value as trade. Plus, I think it is a valid point that gifting them biomass is a troubling proposition since we’re not exactly 100% sure what they are using it for - though there are very good reasons to believe it is to replenish their numbers.

Yes, it was more of a reference to its connection to the Sisters of EVE.

Granted, yes, we have the benefit of hindsight, which is always 20/20. Maybe I’m starting to understand the reasoning behind ARC’s actions somewhat.

Well, it depends. In the case of Colelie, Federation Navy waited until the Republic Fleet opened fire. Of course, situation was quite different but has the basis of a strong military force inside your borders as a cause for concern and a response, but a tempered and measured one, not a panicked one. And, obviously both sides communicated, albeit disastrously, which is something we cannot yet do with the Drifters.

No argument against this. Their silence is certainly frustrating in the extreme. If they’d just announced that “we want all of you to die” then we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all, I’d be in the trenches right there with you.

I have to admit you’ve swayed me a bit, I’m starting to see the cause for concern especially in light of past actions of the Drifters. I do concur with you on your often stated view that the response to these recent, anomalous Drifter fleets needs to be re-evaluated, and I hope that ARC listens to your propositions more eagerly than they listen to me.

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My staff informs me that stimulants are an ineffective replacement for sleep, and that accountancy meetings are not in fact nap time. Honestly, I’m not sure they’ve convinced me, considering that some of those empty suits could give an Ogre II a run when it comes to personality.

This is because Arrendis has, herself, explicitly said that she’s on these forums for the sake of sport in the form of argument. Her questions, while straightforward, are an attempt to score rhetorical points. This is why she refuses to concretely answer questions herself; she knows that the moment a position is defined, it can be pushed against. I’ve enough on my plate without the pedantry and sophistry that would result from trying to actually engage with an often-disingenuous frequenter of these forums.

Essentially, when it comes to bandying the ‘troll’ word, I try to use it sparingly and only when actually appropriate.

In any case, back to other matters.

@Woodrow_Ormand;

  1. The grammatical structure was odd, that’s all, and implied otherwise. When it surfaced repeatedly, I wanted clarification. Thank you for clarifying.
  2. Given that the Drifters appear to be artificial or reconstructed intelligences piloting a meatsuit, ceasing fire is not often a ‘surrender’ so much as a command and control failure. The perfectly timed and focused fire appears, simply, to be a form of networked overmind or control system, and this control system displays limits. This is to say, sufficiently large concentrations of Drifters, forced to action, eventually ‘break,’ unresponsive. Part of our point of interest is determining exactly how this occurs, and whether this may be exploited in a more methodical way. As before, if the Drifters were to attempt to communicate with anyone, we would take note and respond as appropriate. However, there has not been a sign of so much as an attempt at communication in over three years. No attempt at communication on our part has ever been responded to. Naturally, there are disagreements about what constitutes ‘adequate effort.’ I imagine that if we were to make concerted, long-lasting efforts at communication, we’d likely be lambasted for inaction and allowing a threat to remain in a populated area.
  3. We will have to agree to disagree on this point.
  4. You miss my point. Originally, when the drone regions were reopened, CONCORD issued no bounties for rogue drones. Indeed, this was despite rogue drone hives appearing all across known space, even though the concentration was in the regions now called the Spire, Perrigen Falls, etc. Rogue drones have never not been a threat, something that can’t be negotiated with. Would you say that Capsuleers shouldn’t have colonized those regions, or attacked the rogue drones without explicit, direct orders from CONCORD, given the lack of bounty?
  5. Drifters are a relatively new arrival, however, even to C5 and C6 wormholes, so whether that is ‘their turf’ is debateable. Indeed, while Sleeper and Drifter architecture coexists in the Hive areas, one could still posit that the Drifters are more parasites than partners or protectors. Consider that they increase their numbers by cracking open Sleeper enclaves, harvesting corpses, modifying them with additional cybernetics, and then inserting what seems to be a drone intelligence or networked artificial mindstate into the refurbished biomass.
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Separate the content from the writer. If the straight-forwards questions have straight-forwards answers, then refusing to bring them to light simply serves to make it look like you don’t have any answers, and instead applying labels and motives to the writer makes it very much look like you’re trying to deflect instead.

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Not from me. I don’t consider ARC the first, last and only line of defence we have, and you don’t have any obligation to go and fight them for the rest of us, so why would anyone “lambast” you for not taking action? It’s odd that you would think so. If a threat remains in high-security space in highly populated area, then it is the respective navies job to remove it, is it not?

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Because Arrendis’s questions aren’t honestly asked.

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Well … but, aren’t there there are kind of a lot of capsuleers who make kind of a lot of ISK hunting various threats in highsec, working for various entities (not necessarily the navies)?

It seems like a modern navy has a slightly different job from just ensuring overall security. There’s a standing navy for every nation, of course, but, there are also dozens of lesser security forces and nongovernmental entities that have forces of their own-- or, if not, at least have the resources to hire mercenaries, and apparently for whatever reason would rather do that than just leave it up to someone more focused on jobs like that.

This is probably going to be a wrong analogy in some ways, but, I hope you’ll forgive me for using it anyway: living in the Empire, feudalism’s on my mind a little.

So, you’ve got your standing national army/navy. It’s mostly focused on serving the throne/central government of whatever kind, and it’s generally focused on somewhat well-defined large-scale strategic objectives and opponents. It might send a squad after particularly pesky bandits now and then, but only when convenient and definitely not at the cost of its larger mission. Scale: international (macro/mega).

Then you’ve got your local leaders-- in the Empire, these will be feudal lords and their forces. These are smaller entities responsible for maintaining security on the smaller scale of their own holdings. Resources and scale of commitment will vary, but, basically, they’re going to be way more interested in small-scale events-- IF those events fall within their domain. They’ll tend to be leery of stepping outside of that. Scale: regional to local (macro/micro).

Then, you’ve got your various specialized entities that deal with stuff that doesn’t really fit into the other categories: too small (or otherwise just not on the right subject) for the national military; too diffuse for any given local lord. In the Empire, these are people like the Ministry of Internal Order (MIO) and the Speakers of Truth. Scale: typically low-level and diffuse, but widespread (multijurisdictional micro that would be a terrible headache if it went macro, much less mega).

In this case, it seems a lot like CONCORD and the empires generally, while interested, are kind of leaving the Drifter situation in the hands of a specialized entity: us, capsuleers. (Specialization: high-performance messing up of stuff in space.) ARC at the moment is the main group to have stepped up, and stayed stepped-up. (There are others-- I wonder if Ciniel is still running a personal campaign against them?)

The main reason for doing this is pretty straightforward: Drifters are a little hard to engage without risking heavy casualties, and avoiding those casualties is … finicky? … Tricky, maybe. Anyway. Basically, given how things went when the Imperial Navy was fighting the Drifters directly, I guess probably nobody wants to write that many letters home to various people’s parents and spouses.

And, probably, the navies aren’t all that well set up to handle a bunch of research while their people are dying by the thousands. ARC has a little enthusiasm for it. (Research, I mean.)

I really hope ARC’s not the last, best hope or something stupid and dramatic like that, but it does kind of feel like the problem’s been delegated to us as a class, and ARC’s the primary group conducting operations on it right now.

Oh-- by the way, we do kind of get rewarded by CONCORD for Drifter hunting. Those of us with bad security status tend to see it getting boosted from Drifter kills. So it doesn’t seem very much like CONCORD objects.

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Yes, but so far no one is paying us for dealing with Drifters, save for the enigmatic “Agency”.

Well if they want us to, they could at least say so. Amarr Empire did during the attack on Safizon, but no one else has. Eh, well, maybe the empires aren’t asking us to since well, capsuleer poke their noses in everything and not having explicit permission makes them even more interested in poking their noses into things.

If some ragtag bunch of capsuleers can do it, so can trained militaries. Which do have their own capsuleers, too.
And Imperial Navy is kind of a terrible example, since their tactics generally involve staying power and numerical superiority, and ship designs generally lend themselves poorly to highly mobile combat doctrines, which I understand are the current tactics employed by capsuleers against Drifters? But, given time, surely they too could adapt and learn from the combat doctrines Capsuleers have already field tested.

Yes, the problem with this issue seems to be that it revolves around “feels”, “possibilities” and in general just uncertainty about everything.

Is that so? Well, that is something to think about.

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Good thoughts. I’ll keep my response to this for right now.

Well-- to the first, sure. … If they wanted to spend the time on training and resources, and dedicate units to the task instead of staying focused on strategic objectives against less-mysterious foes. The zero-loss ARC/SERAPH Drifter doctrine isn’t all that hard to pull off, but, it is a little tricky, is probably less-useful against almost anything BUT a Drifter, and quickly becomes impractical against large numbers of massed Drifters …

… and, what I just thought of: “which might become much more likely if the national navies engage.” (Or, in the Empire’s case, resume engaging.)

If you’re going to go possibly painfully poking, prodding, and provoking an opaque, potentially particularly-potent precursor power, maybe have somebody else do your dirty work.

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My suspicion, so far as the CONCORD-and-bounty thing is concerned, is that CONCORD considers Drifter salvage valuable enough on its own. Admittedly, as an administrator and coordinator for ARC, I can say that the value of the salvage is on my mind. However, we haven’t been in the business of selling that salvage for some time, but instead bring it to a central staging for warehousing and analysis. This is despite Zainou Biotech, for instance, being a principle purchasing party for Sleeper- and Drifter-salvaged materials.

But, yes, Ms. Jenneth is correct in that hunting Drifters does net an uptick in CONCORD’s security status tracker.

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Mm. Well, if they do consider Drifters a particularly worrying enemy, they should be doing that. Can’t rely on fickle independent capsuleers for everything.

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Clearly it’s not what I meant, either. My point has been simply that while we have the opportunity to engage in non-violent study and observation, we’re idiots not to take advantage of it. We’ve demonstrated we can shoot them. We’ll still be able to shoot them later, if they start shooting again.

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Just like the Navies will shoot you if you carry contraband. All of this fainting and clutching at pearls just because there’s a new bully in space with more guns than you.

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So did you. Do you think that implanting something into the tissue of your brain, or implanting a number different implants (not ‘one’ as you seem to think they are) into the nervous system in the upper spinal cord doesn’t affect your psychology? Do you still fear death with the same visceral ‘this is my end’ kind of reaction that baseliners have? Do you think that hasn’t affected the way you think?

Death, final and overwith, looming everpresent ahead of us, is a fundamental part of ‘being human’. Remove that… and you are something else, no matter how much that idea may terrify you.

Why do you think a number of us choose (and it’s a choice, no denying it) not to believe we’re ‘immortals’, but just… short-lived, disposable people who’ll eventually be replaced by someone else that has our face, our memories, and who all our friends think of as ‘us’? That when we die, nobody will care or even remember for very long that we died… because they’ve got their replacement ‘us’?

For some of us, that’s a depressing thought. For others, it just means we should make the most of the weeks we have. Either way, I find that a far more human mode of thought than ‘I am immortal’. ‘Immortals’ aren’t human. They’re self-declared gods… or monsters.

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I’m pretty okay with being a monster! Rawr!

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It also doesn’t help that she (and Aria) are misrepresenting what I’ve said in the past. I’ve said I’m a pedant, and as such, I enjoy argument. I can argue both sides of most issues, and where there hasn’t been any investment or clear preference on my part, I’ve been more than willing to pick apart even the most trivial of semantic lapses, but that hardly means I’m not engaging in good faith.

Still, it makes it easier for them to evade and not answer, if they can twist things around to try to score popularity points, so let them. As for refusal to ‘concretely answer questions’… usually, Makoto, the answers are a fair bit more complex than you’re willing to listen to. Or, you know, being a fallible human being, maybe I lose my train of thought and tangent off.

But then when you do ask me to do something, and I ask you for the actual parameters of the task… suddenly it’s you who won’t answer. Instead, you posture and act like I’m being unreasonable to say ‘exactly what is it you’re asking me to demonstrate?’ You hide, you evade, and you act like saying ‘so go there and do that’ is perfectly reasonable, even if ‘there’ and ‘that’ have never been defined.

And then you set up straw men, like implying that if you were to do precisely what I suggested, I’d be one of the ones ‘lambasting’ you for doing it.

Put simply, Makoto, your behavior indicates that you offer no answers about what science you’ve gathered because you have no answers, have gathered no actual data. You’re simply posturing and posing as the responsible scientist, while on no less of a crusade than Alizabeth. At least she’s honest. At least she’s motivated by something other than money and seeking fame.

Call me whatever you like, Makoto. It doesn’t change any of the things you keep running and hiding away from.

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:popcorn:

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