Are Wardecs always going to be broken? Is a fix even possible?

Some more great posts today folks, thank you! Keep’em coming!

All those quotes from CSM 13 indicate CCP does think it’s ‘not right’, and phrases like “extremely skewed” and “negatively impact a huge number of people” sound closer to ‘totally broken’ than ‘just needs a few small tweaks’ to fix. At least to me.

For me the key issue is, if it can be done with little to no risk. If sufficient risk is involved, then it’s not really abuse, it’s accepting higher risk/reward.

Mostly it seems only to prevent sealclubbing corps that opt out of War Eligibility. Kezrai’s numbers indicate that if a corp opts to put a structure up, they’re likelt to get clubbed.

I’m not sure how this Srtandings idea you mentioned works, can you explain?

I think it’s pretty clear CCP isn’t happy with them, since they say so themselves:

Other than allwoing corps to opt out without structures in the current system, things seem to be operating the same as they have for the past 10 years or more. I made the thread because almost everything I’ve read or experienced about wardecs in the last 10-12 years has been about how and from my view at least it doesn’t seem to be getting much better.

Some people sounds a bit pessimistic about HS wars but I think there’s been some good suggestions here. Maybe a few more and we can get some support for another orund of changes!

1 Like

Sure…but some twist ‘broken’ into ’ should not even exist '. Some here are not after a ‘fix’…they are ( and have even stated so ) after the complete abolition of wardecs.

Stations are simply stationary ‘ships’ plonked in space. In that respect they should always be open to attack. So I think any move to allow corps below a certain size to evade being war eligible would simply be wrong. Rather, I would substantially increase the defence capabilities of stations…and my suggestion of a long range, long duration, neuting device would eliminate the most effective element of station bashing fleets…their logi.

I think that is all that is really required. I know from having done lots of station bashing that logi is always THE biggest concern of fleet commanders in such fleets…more so than the DPS. I’ve been in fleets that were cancelled due to not enough logi, which very much makes the point.

Similar to FW, where the corporation’s Empire rating is determined by the averaged Empire ratings of corporation members.

If you do a lot of PvE in high-sec you can get your Empire rating above 9.9 - whereby you cannot be touched by wardecs. It takes months to achieve this for just a single player, so to maintain it as a corporation you’d need to be very selective with who you’d admit in order to keep the average above 9.9.

This Wardec proposal addresses specific concerns stated by CCP in the CSM 13 minutes (as noted in this post ), those being:

  • Risk Reward: wardecs “extremely skewed in favor of aggressors”, “with low risk”
  • Game Activity: “people involved in wars will simply not play whilst the war is ongoing”
  • Defender Engagement: “want to see a scenario where the defenders who may not normally be interested in wars would engage in them”
  • Player Retention: “war declarations allow a small number of players to negatively affect a huge number of people”, “considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends”, and “it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention”

Intent is to decrease the negative impacts of wardecs and increase the positive ones. Design goals listed here and here . Ideas have been adopted from other posts and sources over the years, they’re not all original to me.

It uses these factors:

  • Skin in the Game: attackers place assets at risk which have a meaningful risk of loss
  • Risk/Reward: war outcomes are less predictable and offer potential rewards for both sides
  • Scalability: wars require more focus on targets, so declaring more wars increases risk of loss
  • Defender Agency: defenders have meaningful methods to set their own war goals
  • Participation: defender members each have viable options to take action and earn rewards

To reduce screen scroll, each section is in a spoiler, click the arrow/Title to open or close.

**War Objectives and Point System**

A key feature is the War Actions interface and point system. An attacker always has the same objectives: Destroy target assets and interdict the target from successful activities. The defender has a new set of options, the War Actions missions.

When war is declared, the defender is given the choice to unlock various War Action goals. This resembles the daily AIR Opportunity interface (so using existing/familiar code). The defender pays to unlock War Action categories for their members to pursue. These are daily actions similar to AIR - mine X amount, kill X NPCs, Earn X LP, etc. Possible additions would include completing DED combat sites, or conducting successful exploration. This gives the defender various ways to remain active in their own playstyles while conducting the war.

Once a defender member begins a daily task, that task is ‘active’ until complete. If the member completes the task, they score a War Action point. If the task is begun, but not completed by downtime, it is considered ‘interdicted’ and scores a point for the attacker. Tasks can only be completed in High sec.

Both attacker and defender score points for ship or structure kills. Something like .5 point for a shuttle or corvette, 1 for a frigate, 2 destroyer, etc. When an attacker kills a defender ship, any ‘active’ tasks that defender had running are interdicted and their points are scored for the attacker.

War allies can only score points for kills and interdictions. They do not receive daily missions.

**War Eligibility, War Bonds and War Debt**

War Indemnity Bonds provide voluntary war eligibility and also set up part of the reward system for the winner. In order to become war eligible, a corp/alliance has to post a War Indemnity Bond equal to 50 million ISK plus 2 million per member. (Or any other set of values that sets a lower initial cost for small entities, but a higher cost for large entities.)

At the time war is declared, the “Member Fee” is calculated on a per-capita basis and added to the War Report. Any new recruits during the war must have their member fee paid, either by themselves or the corp. Any member leaving the corp must pay their Member Fee into the corp wallet (or War Wallet if a separate one is implemented). If they have insufficient ISK they incur War Debt - 50% of all income is deducted until their War Debt is paid. Allies for a war need their own War Indemnity Bond.

The total War Bonds per side make up the pool of ISK to be assigned at the conclusion of the war.

**War Resolution**

At war end, the War Action Points are totalled per entity on a per capita basis. This limits the impact of sheer numbers on success. Higher per-capita point total wins the war. Winner(s) are paid a portion of the losers War Indemnity Bond in proportion to the total point score. Eg. if winner has 1.50 points per capita and loser has 0.75, winner receives 2/3 of the losers War Indemnity Bond.

Loser then has War Debt until their WIB is restored, 50% of all income goes to restore the WIB. I’d recommend entities have a War Wallet where funds are taken from to pay for Member Fees and War Debt.

**War Incentives and Reputation**

In order to provide incentive for corps to become war eligible, a new ‘Reputation’ system is added. This system has two aspects, Reputation and Reliability.

Each of these aspects has a Corp component and a Personal component. Members earn their own personal Rep and Reliability by completing their own tasks, and a portion of their gain/loss also adds to the Corp total.

Reputation is based on winning wars. For each win, 1 Corp Reputation is added, for each loss, 0.5 Corp Reputation lost. Members receive 0.5 for a win, lose 0.25 for a loss.

Reliability is based on completing War Actions. Various (fractional) points assigned for kills or completing War Tasks. Points are lost for being killed or for failing a task. The corp receives 1/4 of whatever the member earns/loses.

Half a point is deducted from Personal R&R if leaving a corp during an active war.

R&R scores are in the range 0 to 4, no negatives. Reputation gives a % bonus to ISK and LP earned, only when in a player corp. Reliability gives a % bonus to Mining, Evermarks, Standings gains and discount on the hisec NPC POCO tax rate.

A member gets his Reliability bonus (0 to 4%) when in any player corp. They get the Reputation bonus when in a War Eligible Corp. Their Personal R&R is added to the Corp R&R, up to 8% total. They get a 50% bonus to both when an actual war is on. So a member could have up to a 12% total bonus when part of a war.

Along with the War Bond payouts, this gives all corps and individual members incentive to participate in war activities. Along with war debt, it discourages corp hopping to escape wars. It also provides incentive for players to hop in to wars to increase their personal ratings.

**War Eligibility Modifiers**

Non-eligible corps pay a 5% Concord Protection tax (similar to the 11% NPC corp tax).

Along with voluntarily posting a War Indemnity Bond to become eligible, entities become eligible under these conditions:

  • Any Corp with over 100 members must post a WIB before accepting more members.
  • Any Alliance with over 150 members must post a WIB.
  • Placing a Quantum Core in a Structure requires a WIB posted (see War Structure Modifiers).

Alternatively, exceeding any of these restrictions could post the WIB automatically, and the entity incurs War Debt until the WIB is paid for.

**War Structure Modifiers**

Structures are no longer a requirement for war. Corps can place one structure with a Limited Core. A corp of 15 or more members can place a single Medium Structure no closer than 10,000 KM from another object (meaning they’re not on-grid with anything). The Limited Core will cost only 50 Million ISK and doesn’t support all functions. Eg. no rigs can be installed or something.

The intent here is to give smaller, non-war eligible corps a home base and some experience with managing structures before they put large amounts at risk. So limit it however you like.

One issue is the usual “we need to be able to remove any structure”. I’d say either the size/core limits and the 10,000KM distance remove this issue, or create a mechanic to issue a War Threat for 200 million ISK. War Threat gives defender 3 Weeks to take down that structure, otherwise they automatically become War Eligible (and incur War Debt if needed).

**How It All Works**

Attacker pays 10 million ISK to declare a war. High fees aren’t needed as the War Indemnity Bond is now the primary cost. Defender receives war notice, gets the War Actions choices, and pays 5 million ISK each to unlock various War Actions. These are just NPC fees / ISK sinking.

Each defender member gets their daily display of War Actions, like AIR Opportunities. Total War Action Points for each side are updated in the War Report. Since Attackers now need to pay more attention to tracking down and eliminating defender War Acts, mass wardeccing becomes less sustainable and profitable (since they’re now effectively paying the defender for losses).

Defender corps now have long-term benefits for remaining active during wars, as well as viable methods to achieve those rewards. Each member has their own Personal R&R ratings, so they have incentive to participate also.

Size disparity is addressed by the per-capita score at the end (small corps have fewer targets to score points against, whereas large corps need many more points to maintain per-capita totals). Removal of structure/core requirements enables small corps to participate as either attacker or defender.

Defender corps and members both have agency and multiple valid choices to make, which increases engagement and participation chance.


As stated, this isn’t intended to be the ‘one true Wardec’ solution. It shows that Wardec problems can be reduced by addressing the specific issues involved, namely Defender Agency, Risk/Reward, Scalability and Defender Engagement.

Wardecs by nature (always at attackers choice) will cause some degree of problems. Increasing defender activity and player retention can only occur if the defender has viable options that result in a ‘win’ from their own viewpoint.

As usual, the test of any new mechanic isn’t how it might work, but how it could be broken. So feel free to hammer away on how you’d go about breaking a system like this, and/or make your own counter-proposals.

Related Side issues not considered here:

  • Citadel defenses, ally war mechanics (eg. the allied logi problem)
  • Mercenary defense/attack/protection contracts
  • Bounty system for high sec only, pilot/corp/alliance targets

(I also skipped some fiddly bits regarding point scoring, payouts, debt, how allies calculate into the payouts, etc. This doesn’t need to be a full implementation blueprint, just a direction guide.)

5 Likes

Still reading, but going to give it a +1 just on presentation alone. Finished reading, re-reading and digesting…

It’s a heck of a lot of hoops to jump through. And I’d be careful that forcing the wardeced corp to perform ‘War Actions’ outside their station may in fact lead them to greater monetary risk than if they’d lost the station. That would be in the form of both ships lost and time spent performing war actions that could have been spent making greater ISK amounts doing whatever they’d normally do.

1 Like

this is interesting since war decs weren’t even a thing until 9 years after the game was released. So for 9 years, the economy did just fine without war decs. According to you, that’s impossible yet it happened.

No one is suggesting an end to PvP. No one. The only one here who thinks we are is you. We’re talking about changing war decs. We’re talking about improving it- not removing all PvP. also, you could remove war decs completely and PvP would still happen here.

In addition, PvE ship destruction and bullet expenditure is a BIG part of this game and that adds to the economy. The economy will do just fine no matter what. You can relax.

Mining and manufacturing are for PvE as well. Moon mining stations (something I’m currently building) is for PvE, not PvP. Moon Mining Stations don’t mine player ships. They mine moons. PvE Industry. Industry for mining. A POS is also used for Industry, processing, Market, Corporation Management, and so many other things. The ore required to make one is mined, purchased, proccessed, or bought from other players and it’s done a lot of times for reasons other than war.

“We can’t change War Decs because PvP has to happen” CCP has changed War Decs many times and PvP has continued to happen. Your argument is simply that you just don’t want to see changes made to anything. That’s why you’re using this strawman argument. War Decs don’t make PvP happen. It can be changed, altered, nerfed, buffed, or removed entirely and PvP will still happen.

Maybe we do need to change it so that Structures are no longer required for war decs. Then a lot of these PvP corps who operate by contracting everything to other corps so that they don’t have to have structures will be vulnerable.

2 Likes

“Abusing”, Farming big groups in high sec is never a bad thing. It causes a lot more destruction, distracts war dec groups from smaller targets as they already have a big pool of fish to play shark in, and it trims big groups of dumb, unprepared, unwilling to prepare and ignorant people and their assets. It also forces big groups to actually use their manpower to defend vulnerable and valuable assets instead of being passive slobs.

In connection to that I also believe that groups larger than 1k characters should not remain war dec immune. It is absolutely implausible why groups like Silent Company, Absolute Honor, Xagenic, Pepe Squad, 000 Russian Concern and many others with a gigantic number of characters (Alliances - DOTLAN :: EveMaps) should not be allowed to be war dec’d. With so many characters, they ought to have the means to defend themselves. If you have over 1000 characters in a corp, you should be required to fight for you members and not just let everything meander along.

1 Like

Huh ? Maybe English is not your first language, but I never said anything even remotely close to what you imply, or said anything was ‘impossible’.

Again I wonder if plain English is your first language, as I never stated anyone was suggesting an ’ end to PvP '.

Again, struggling with English ? I have stated a dozen times in this thread various changes to wardecs I’d like to see.

Which I also suggested.

I suggest you read and understand what people actually say…rather than blurting out some knee jerk reaction when you’ve not read and even not understood what’s been said.

Last time I docked my AO char at Absolute Order HQ…it said ‘Vulnerable’ on it. The station is owned by a wardec-able corp…which is a requirement.

Most of my AO chars remain in wardec-able corps ( such as AO9, which is part of Wrecking Machine ) all the time. But clearly, as there are a number of wardec-able AO corps then a war on one of them is not necessarily a war on AO9. So a war against ‘Absolute Order’ is really just a war against one of the wardec-able corps within the alliance.

That is how Wrecking Machine ( which also contains corps that are unrelated to AO ) can go off and have wars without the whole of AO being dragged into it.

Some, though not all, AO members are in a non-wardec corp…and may transfer to wardec corps during any war. This ‘corp swapping’ is the contentious part…though there are restrictions on it, such as not being able to swap back into the wardec corp within a week of swapping out of it.

If you changed wardecs from being about stations to being about corps…well, the corp swapping would still happen. One would have to require that corp swap could not be done after a wardec had been declared. Which could just as well be done with stations being the targets.

So the real issue is not whether the target is stations or corps…it is whether one allows corp swapping. And I suspect even that could be gotten round by related corps becoming ‘allies’…so any solution is really not that simple.

Could not be bothered to add the interceptors, here is the raw data

edit : added in details to keep forum readability
edit : reworked to have a single row per month
edit : made month readable with shorter format
edit : added chart made with google sheets
edit : added the other BPO-sourced structures in query and result, not in chart
edit : added the log-scale chart for readability
edit : added yearly query, table, chart with log scale and all BPO-sourced structures

Monthly

sql query
select
	to_char(date_trunc('month', kil.kill_date), 'YYYY-MM') "date",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'astrahus') "astrahus",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'athanor') "athanor",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'raitaru') "raitaru",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'azbel') "azbel",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'fortizar') "fortizar",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'tatara') "tatara",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'keepstar') "keepstar",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'sotiyo') "sotiyo"
from
	mer_kill kil
	join esi_universe_solarsystem sol on kil.solar_system_id = sol.id
	join esi_items_type typ on kil.destroyed_ship_id = typ.id
where
	sol.security_status>0.45
	-- 1657=citadel, 1404=engineering complex, 1406=refinery
	and typ.group_id in (1657, 1404,1406)
group by
	date_trunc('month', kil.kill_date)
order by
	date_trunc('month', kil.kill_date)
table result
date astrahus athanor raitaru azbel fortizar tatara keepstar sotiyo
2017-11 15 7 32 17 6 1 0 0
2017-12 19 10 32 25 5 1 0 0
2018-01 22 9 43 28 3 1 0 0
2018-02 47 19 91 29 5 2 0 1
2018-03 107 54 190 36 17 4 0 1
2018-04 85 54 133 44 8 6 0 1
2018-05 58 59 147 49 9 5 0 0
2018-06 43 79 99 30 7 3 0 1
2018-07 50 60 125 15 4 1 0 0
2018-08 67 92 157 40 6 7 0 1
2018-09 95 176 227 61 9 9 0 1
2018-10 87 160 197 30 8 9 0 6
2018-11 76 133 183 43 11 5 0 1
2018-12 58 163 128 51 6 9 0 3
2019-01 59 167 137 36 7 6 0 0
2019-02 76 135 166 26 8 5 0 1
2019-03 75 173 148 29 6 9 0 0
2019-04 48 165 98 20 8 6 0 0
2019-05 34 127 96 35 8 0 0 2
2019-06 39 151 105 32 6 5 0 0
2019-07 26 118 62 53 5 4 0 1
2019-08 31 123 71 45 6 11 0 3
2019-09 32 143 81 30 4 16 0 1
2019-10 25 160 93 25 6 2 0 0
2019-11 41 122 103 22 5 7 0 5
2019-12 50 166 121 18 4 5 0 1
2020-01 73 197 144 23 6 3 0 2
2020-02 89 217 175 43 11 14 0 1
2020-03 101 227 268 41 16 14 0 2
2020-04 103 221 240 37 12 12 0 4
2020-05 69 130 116 32 5 9 0 1
2020-06 1006 1908 2382 38 5 16 0 1
2020-07 69 266 205 25 3 4 0 2
2020-08 95 265 215 21 8 7 0 0
2020-09 77 256 210 29 6 3 0 2
2020-10 82 243 253 25 7 1 0 2
2020-11 69 191 174 21 5 3 0 0
2020-12 72 196 157 17 2 3 0 1
2021-01 59 186 141 21 3 4 0 2
2021-02 68 158 109 14 1 8 0 0
2021-03 85 155 148 17 3 5 0 1
2021-04 46 119 102 16 3 6 0 2
2021-05 47 101 102 10 6 2 0 1
2021-06 44 91 107 10 2 2 0 1
2021-07 50 94 90 7 1 4 0 0
2021-08 62 128 93 7 1 1 0 0
2021-09 53 123 117 8 0 1 0 1
2021-10 63 111 114 17 1 4 0 1
2021-11 46 111 92 10 3 5 0 0
2021-12 42 84 74 9 3 1 0 0
2022-01 44 116 66 10 0 6 0 1
2022-02 34 126 67 10 0 1 0 0
2022-03 42 154 119 8 2 4 0 2
2022-04 48 109 145 12 2 2 0 1
2022-05 62 152 127 13 1 2 0 0
2022-06 60 227 89 11 3 0 0 0
2022-07 58 176 124 11 3 3 0 0
2022-08 48 149 76 15 2 2 0 0
2022-09 43 118 64 8 1 4 0 0
2022-10 49 179 77 8 7 3 0 1
2022-11 44 95 89 4 5 3 0 0
2022-12 40 119 67 6 6 2 0 0
2023-01 33 100 74 6 4 3 0 0
2023-02 23 65 33 5 9 1 0 0
2023-03 26 168 50 9 3 1 0 0
2023-04 40 90 89 8 4 3 0 2
2023-05 48 82 80 10 2 3 0 0
2023-06 46 128 72 16 2 1 1 3
2023-07 46 100 59 14 3 2 0 2
2023-08 30 146 66 12 8 3 0 2
2023-09 35 102 75 5 1 2 0 0
2023-10 34 170 64 8 5 3 0 0
2023-11 27 176 83 16 1 0 0 0
2023-12 40 99 74 5 2 4 0 1
2024-01 34 144 69 5 1 2 0 0
2024-02 35 120 64 4 3 2 0 0
2024-03 30 125 56 8 5 3 0 2
2024-04 42 89 48 5 3 2 0 0
2024-05 22 81 35 3 1 0 0 1
2024-06 18 120 50 9 2 9 0 0
2024-07 27 79 49 6 3 0 0 0
2024-08 25 93 65 3 2 0 0 0
2024-09 29 81 37 2 0 2 0 0
2024-10 34 107 38 6 0 4 0 0
2024-11 24 84 53 7 1 2 0 0
2024-12 31 127 81 8 3 2 0 0
charted, small structures only

log scale

just to check, the sole HS keepstar kill is Keepstar | Losses | Ship | zKillboard which is correct month

Yearly

sql query
select
	to_char(date_trunc('year', kil.kill_date), 'YYYY') "date",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'astrahus') "astrahus",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'athanor') "athanor",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'raitaru') "raitaru",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'azbel') "azbel",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'fortizar') "fortizar",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'tatara') "tatara",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'keepstar') "keepstar",
	count(*) filter(where lower(typ.name) = 'sotiyo') "sotiyo"
from
	mer_kill kil
	join esi_universe_solarsystem sol on kil.solar_system_id = sol.id
	join esi_items_type typ on kil.destroyed_ship_id = typ.id
where
	sol.security_status>0.45
	-- 1657=citadel, 1404=engineering complex, 1406=refinery
	and typ.group_id in (1657, 1404,1406)
group by
	date_trunc('year', kil.kill_date)
order by
	date_trunc('year', kil.kill_date)
table result
date astrahus athanor raitaru azbel fortizar tatara keepstar sotiyo
2017 34 17 64 42 11 2 0 0
2018 795 1058 1720 456 93 61 0 16
2019 536 1750 1281 371 73 76 0 14
2020 1905 4317 4539 352 86 89 0 18
2021 665 1461 1289 146 27 43 0 9
2022 572 1720 1110 116 32 32 0 5
2023 428 1426 819 114 44 26 1 10
2024 351 1250 645 66 24 28 0 3
charted, all structures, log scale

3 Likes

I appreciate the work you put in on that proposal. I feel it is a little overly complex, though. I also think your war eligibility modifiers moot the rest:

So, basically: any corp bigger than 100, any alliance bigger than 150, and any corp owning a usable citadel is war-eligible. Every other smaller corp or alliance that is indy/PVE-focused will simply pay the 5% vig as a cost of doing business (because that will almost certainly be less than their potential losses if they became war-eligible). At which point, the 5% isn’t a meaningful choice, and so isn’t necessary as a mechanic, and we’re back to size-based determination for war eligibility. And I see two problems with that:

  1. Corps ≦100 member remain war-ineligible.
  2. Corps and alliances are disincentivized to scale beyond a certain cap.

What other metrics would be reasonable? Structure ownership certainly not because of holding corps. Killboard stats? Gameable. Size is the only rational and reasonable way to determine if someone should be war dec immune or not. If you want to stay immune, limit your growth and only keep those chars in corp that are active and contribute. IF you want to grow and make a name for yourself, you should fight for it and be ready to defend yourself.

gameable too.

2 Likes

And for a fee of 200m, attackers can force a small corp with a limited core to become war eligible.

So once again, if you’re a small corp with a structure, you are indeed war eligible.

It has to be worth defending. Eve has one golden rule: Don’t fly anything that you can’t afford to lose. If you can just evacuate everything (including that damn core - I’m not sure if the core can be removed because I haven’t tried) and leave, then why not? Where’s the reason to stay?

Eve’s golden rule dictates that it’s logical to just build a new one and move on. I get the goal here, but cost is cost. What’s the point of spending 10B ISK losing your best ships defending a structure that cost 2B? Reputation points? Think an attacking corp with 50 Catalysts is going to back down saying, “Great job guys! We’ll let you keep your structure!”?

To be clear, I don’t think anyone should be war dec immune, other than NPC corps. I just think there needs to be mechanics in place to prevent abuse of the war dec system (what I said earlier about mitigating perverse incentives and profit motives).

Any new system with multiple features to address multiple problems with wardecs is going to be more complex than what we have now. There is no “just tweak this one setting here” simple fix.

It’s a lot of info in a single post, so certainly people will scratch their heads over it. But it’s actually quite simple. Wars and war eligibility are virtually the same as they are now. The only actually new things are:

  • Some large corps and alliances that are currently Non-eligible would become eligible
  • War Actions for the defender (which is similar to AIR Opps) and War Points for victory conditions
  • War Bonds which just replace the current NPC ISK wardec fee, and victory payouts.
  • Reputation and Reliability, which is much like Corp Standings

And all those things are calculated automatically, it’s not something players have to ‘manage’.

Except that all those corps can be non-eligible right now just by not putting up a structure. So this proposal changes nothing in that respect - except that more Corps/Alliances currently non-eligible would become so. And currently non-eligible corps have the additional incentive of 5% tax savings plus R&R bonuses plus the fact that if they’re wardecced, they now have viable options to conduct the war and earn rewards from it.

Your criticism seems to be focused on smaller corps being able to remain non-eligible, but the proposal actually make more corps eligible than is currently the case, and gives more corps reasons to do so. And then you also criticize that some large corps/alliances should have the freedom to remain non-eligible (ie. not “disincentivized to scale”).

Do you see the contradiction?

Which I have a problem with…

Except they wouldn’t. 5% is not enough to move that needle (11% barely was in the old days). And I truly don’t see small indy/PVE corps deciding to become war targets for the “rewards” you’ve outlined. I just don’t. They’ll pay the vig and keep on with business as usual.

No. You misunderstand. I’m not saying that corps/alliances should have the freedom to remain non-eligible. I think everyone should be war eligible, except NPC corps. My point about scaling is that if you use size as a metric, risk aversion will dictate corp organizational decisions and could have adverse effects, like reducing recruitment of new players or pruning inactive players and dropping them back to NPC corps. If you draw red lines at membership thresholds, corps will work around those lines to their maximum benefit.

If you want to fairly redesign the wardec system, start from the assumption that everyone is war-eligible, and then figure out from there how to prevent abuse.

There are no hoops. The only difference vs the current system is buying a War Bond, and defenders choosing which War Actions they’re going to unlock.

Nothing is forced. Currently, if a corp is wardecced, they have in effect 2 choices. Continue to do what they usually do, and risk losing their ships plus their structure. OR, stop playing, and just lose the structure.

That situation is unchanged, they still have those 2 options. Except that now, they have the option that “continuing to do what they usually do” has the potential to win the war for them and also earn rewards. A mining corp will unlock mining tasks, a missioning corp will unlock Earn LP and Destroy NPCs, etc. No new risk is assumed, but now any member willing to take risks can viably help their corp win the war, just by doing what they normally do and not getting blown up at it.

I know self-awareness isn’t really your strong point, but you do realize you’ve flipped from arguing that everyone should be at risk all the time, to “gosh this proposal might put more people at risk” as a criticism.

I’ve always advocated giving players more rational options to assume more risk. One of the biggest flaws in EVE is that in many cases there’s no valid reason to take on more risk. You never really grasp what I’m saying, so you fight tooth and nail against most of my posts (even to the extent of 180 flipflopping here), but the proposal is about increasing actual PvP end results, not protecting people from it.

2 Likes