Balance Updates Coming with Uprising!

[Rat_McPackage]

Also i think its worth noting while on the topic of ishtar drone control range, Drone Link Augmentors have no stacking penalty when you put 2 or more on a single ship. I have no way of knowing if this is intended design or a bug on the module group but when combined with the ishtars current 5km bonus per level, with HAC 4 i’ve got 170km of drone control range with the highs loaded up with link aug II’s

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

When I am talking about the merits of the Minmatar Vagabond vs Muninn HAC changes.

Vagabond is a very scary ship when you bring it especially in Pulsar Wormholes Minmatar ships have much higher shield regen than most other ships even Caldari. Don’t ask me why, its something I have noticed. Caldari has much more depth of shield though, which affects how fast it can regen. And in consideration a Vagabond with more of a Shield Fit and ADCU might be more than a handful. Muninn is fairly “balanced” So you don’t end up with as much weirdness as the Vagabond.

Considering the Ishtar. 170km is one distance I have noted. However, that is a workable 340km. Drone Control is “radius based.” But if you drop a sentry drone and then move 170km if the drone is moduled and rigged correctly you can fire double the control range. I have gotten sentries to fire over 200km. Which means I only need to move 30km off my drones to achieve this. There are fits and concepts where this can be taken advantage of. So we need to head this off at the pass ASAP.

[Ten_Virage]

Gilas are almost twice the price of Cerbs though.

[Stitch_Kaneland]

@Xzanos

You say we don’t need another fast missile ship but that’s exactly what the new Muninn is going to be. A missile HAC that is faster than the other missile HACs.

Faster than other missile HACs, yes. Not faster than other missile cruisers. Within the racial archetype, minmatar being the fastest HACs makes sense. But compared to other missile cruisers in other categories, its slower.

@Xzanos

If your going to add another highspeed missile boat… why not just do it to a ship that already flys this way.

Because the Muninn is slower than the existing option, and at 1902m/s cold, I wouldn’t call this “high speed”. The vaga is 2400 cold, a 500m/s difference is huge.

The nosprey is 2159m/s cold and the orthrus is 2183m/s. The vaga having +200 m/s cold (before nano’s or speed mods) would be ridiculous. We already see how fast/popular the nosprey and orthrus are now, we don’t need another ridiculously fast (even faster) missile cruiser.

@Xzanos

Lower EHP, Speed, Agility, Tracking Bonus. Counter to Muninn should be get under guns and brawl, outrange, or out tank.

Minus speed (agility is nearly the same between Muninn and Vagabond), then you have just described what the vagabond already is. Taking out the tracking bonus and having more speed is actually a balancing factor with 720’s because you will end up outtracking yourself unless you know what you’re doing. But in a big fleet blob, going 3200m/s cold with no tracking bonus and people just orbiting around is going to cause a lot of misses or grazing shots.

The vagabond has been doing projectile things far longer than the Muninn. The vagabond is iconic, even back in 2010 it was the best projectile ship, the Muninn’s popularity was only the past 5-6 years when it got a new mid and then the ADCU came out. Changing the Muninn makes more sense than the vagabond, and the vagabond is already properly balanced around 720’s without having to do much to it.

[Ten_Virage]

What the F are you talking about

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Toe_Nail_Fungus

Hydra implanted Ishtar fleets are about as far fetched as Torpedo Muninns at becoming a mainstream doctrine. What Koolaid all-you-can drink buffet do you partake in?

Basically its him and a bunch of his alts crying to try and get the ish nerfed further LOL.

I really don’t get the ish hate.

I mean I killed a gila with one but that was it LOL.

[Advenat_Bedala]

@Xzanos

You then try to buff the Vagabond to replace the role of a Munnin? How about instead take the Vagabond and spice it up by making it the missile boat which would complement better with its highspeed gorilla warfare layout

Brutor tribe have much more experience with missiles then Thukker one

[Malak_Starfire]

As far as PVE goes, changing the Muninn to missiles along with the other changes actually make it a more desirable ship to take into the Abyss. Muninn is going to be more tanky and with a more abyss friendly weapon system. I look forward to comparing it to the Sacrilege that I have been using.

[Xzanos]

@CCP_Aurora

Muninn
Minmatar Cruiser bonuses per level:

• 5.0% bonus to Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile damage
• 3.0% bonus to shield and armor resistances

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses per level:

• 5.0% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity
• 5.0% bonus to Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile launcher rate of fire

The Muninn was the most troublesome of the HACs in terms of fleet meta dominance due to its high mobility, range and alpha damage potential. After going back and forth for some time on this, it was decided that it would be better to rework the ship entirely rather than just nerf it into being useless in an attempt to dislodge HACs from the meta. As Minmatar was lacking its secondary weapons system for HACs, this was a good opportunity to give them a missile boat while hopefully keeping the Muninn interesting and fun to fly, albeit with a different weapon system.

Better less drastic to playstyle change would be:

• Reduce base shield HP from 1580 to 1200
• Maximum Targeting Range reduced from 80,000m to 55,000m

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

• 2% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
• 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

• 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
• 3% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

This would reduce the projection capability and tank of the Muninn to basically the same level as the new proposed Vagabond. Preventing the need to “soften the landing for displaced Muninn pilots who still want to fly a projectile Minmatar HAC.”

@CCP_Aurora

Vagabond

• 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff increased to 12.5%
• Maximum Targeting Range reduced from 70,000 to 55,000 m
• Powergrid increased from 900 to 950 MW

The vagabond is getting some additional buffs to soften the landing for displaced Muninn pilots who still want to fly a projectile Minmatar HAC. We’ll be keeping an eye on this ship to ensure it doesn’t become too strong.

To get missiles into Minmatar HAC lineup the only changes needed would be:

• Increase turret hardpoints from 1 to 5
• Maximum Targeting Range reduced from 70,000 to 55,000 m

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

• 10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
• 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret & Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile damage

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

• 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
• 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster amount

This would change the Vagabond to a more versatile ship in general adding more variety to gameplay. While still nerfing the Muninn and keeping its playstyle intact. This was by no means hard to come up with given the problem areas proposed by CCP. I don’t understand how anyone could think that making such a drastic change to a ship is a good idea when there are clearly better options to increase the variety of options for pilots while also dealing with troubled areas as needed.

[Malak_Starfire]

Sooo less damage than a Rupture but better range and tracking? Oh and less shields than a Rupture? Why pay 150mil more for a Muninn when a Rupture can do just the same? Or just fly a Broadsword instead of the Muninn.

[Xzanos]

So tweak it a bit, the damage is almost exactly the same as the rupture. And when you account for range and tracking which is really the issue at hand the Muninn would still come out on top in comparison to the Rupture. Slightly less shields will even out with the much higher resists and access to assault damage control.

All I am pointing out is that there are better alternatives that are less disruptive to the game in general. Reduce the Muninn effectiveness, Make Vagabond more fun and versatile.

VS

Making Vaga do what the Muninn does and creating a whole new Muninn that will either be just as bad as it is now or completely unused.

[Stitch_Kaneland]

@Xzanos

Better less drastic to playstyle change would be:

• Reduce base shield HP from 1580 to 1200
• Maximum Targeting Range reduced from 80,000m to 55,000m

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

• 2.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
• 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Minmatar Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

• 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
• 2.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Nullsec just puts more people into Muninns to compensate the alpha, since everything else that makes the 720 Muninn braindead to fly still exists. It still has the tracking bonus, still has cap regen (stable w/ MWD), still will be able to tank decently.

Guess what doesn’t have a tracking bonus, already has a lower EHP tank, isn’t cap stable and has to make sacrifices to fit 720’s? The vagabond.

Even dropping the shield HP value down to 1200, its still 14k EHP higher than the vagabond. It went from 71k EHP (with fleet links) to 68.3k EHP with your proposed change. A 720 fleet vagabond has 58k EHP with fleet links.

Your changes would have almost no effect and you’re getting extremely close to just giving it 0% bonuses or turning it into a rupture.

@Xzanos

Making Vaga do what the Muninn does and creating a whole new Muninn that will either be just as bad as it is now or completely unused.

X to doubt.

Anyone that looks at the new Muninn and can’t find uses for it isn’t paying attention. If adopted into fleet meta, missiles can be firewalled, have flight time, delayed application and not the same alpha as artillery. It can be countered.

[Malak_Starfire]

They aren’t making the Vaga do what the Muninn does though. They are enhancing what it already does. The Muninn is a bit redundant when you look at the rest of the Minmatar cruisers, it’s only marginally better than the Broadsword, but both hulls can do the same thing with the ranges that CCP wants HACs to operate at. The only thing a Broadsword can’t do as well as a Muninn is armor tank.

[Xzanos]

Maybe not directly but the increased powergrid will allow for 720s to be fit without too much difficulty and the falloff bonus on the Vaga will allow it to project damage out even further.

[Ten_Virage]

further than the current muninn’s optimal range bonus?

[Stitch_Kaneland]

@Xzanos

Maybe not directly but the increased powergrid will allow for 720s to be fit without too much difficulty and the falloff bonus on the Vaga will allow it to project damage out even further.

Even with the PG bonus, the vagabond needs 2 PG mods to get that 54k EHP tank I mentioned. Which is still nearly 20k EHP less than the Muninn. It can only fit 1 TE, so it loses optimal/tracking with only 1 TE.

720’s need to hurt when fitting them on a cruiser, they are extremely powerful when used en masse. The vagabond already has that built in, the PG buffs were simple to actually make it somewhat possible (but still coming at a significant cost).

[Stitch_Kaneland]

Short range ammo (EMP, PP, Fusion), the current vagabond hits slightly harder past 40km, but the dps differences are very minor (like a 25-50 dps difference).

Using ammo that bonuses optimal range (DA, Sabot, Tremor, proton, nuclear), the Muninn projects better for the most part.

[Xzanos]

Yes, depending on ammo selection. With midrange ammo the new Vagabond will project better past 60km than the current Muninn and only slightly less up to that point. Both with equal volley at 1500 ehp around 60km. The main difference will be the less EHP of the Vagabond in comparison the the current Muninn.

[Malak_Starfire]

Vagabonds are designed to be used by smaller more coordinated groups in hit and run operations. Either harassing larger forces by picking off those breaking formation or to assault smaller groups. This type of gameplay does not scale up very well and so won’t see a lot of fleet use.

Muninns with missiles and better resists are able to take the punishment that Vagabonds can’t and can close the distance to get under Battleship guns and have at it. Which can be countered using various methods already employed with defensive bubbles, bombers, other HACs, etc.

[Xzanos]

@Malak_Starfire

Muninns with missiles and better resists are able to take the punishment that Vagabonds can’t and can close the distance to get under Battleship guns and have at it. Which can be countered using various methods already employed with defensive bubbles, bombers, other HACs, etc.

Or just sit out at range still like every other missile doctrine and boosh around if tackle gets close. As it has been stated many times before we don’t need more dedicated missile platforms. They have stated that one of the issues was projection and that’s exactly what missiles do… PROJECT equal damage across a long range envelope… The counters you have proposed are all high skill required in comparison to anchor, ctrl-click, f1, repeat. At least before Muninns had to worry about tracking.