Bastion Module, Duration Timer Challenge (Need’s rejustments)

[Vuhdo_Rin]

@James_Baboli

Mostly how it effects acceleration with prop mods. Thus my desire for a hair (5-15m/s) more base speed, which doesn’t do anything under bastion which is where you have issue with it.

why do you need more speed ? xD doesnt make sense … youre fast ennough with all marauders ! there is absolutley no need for more speed !

@James_Baboli

My comment was on the bastion module itself. Bastion was iffy, but the hulls with their great resists, pirate BS+ damage and good application were used, and the 4 highs were used for utility stuff mostly. The bastion module itself was about 50/50.

no … with the e-war resistance and the rep bonus the Bastion module were used quite a lot ! at this time they werent fleet pvp ships so they dont come in 50+ gang sizes with bastion modules ! they were solo and small scale or PvE shps !

@James_Baboli

Now, as to 10k DPS rep

you could have reachted this tank at the point where they implemented the bastion module ! problem with actual marauder is that they have ulta power rep AND ultra power DPS !

@James_Baboli

500k EHP isn’t that hard to come close to, making only the 2500 DPS a real challenge to match since armor fits are king of EHP games and they end up lacking damage comparatively.

no … its pretty easy to reach the 2500 dps with the 500k EHP for a buffer fit fleet paladin !
yes armor ships regular have less DPS then shield ships but the 2500 DPS is a minimum ! shield fits can reach way more and if you fit expensive then way more then this ! but if you field a marauder fleet then “expensive” isnt a problem !

@James_Baboli

On the other hand, we can push some cruisers past half that EHP, with one of the Sac fits I’ve seen running close to 300k with pod,

and how much DPS do you get out of this 300k DPS fit ?

@James_Baboli

with a full buffer vulture able to exceed 1m EHP and 3k+

i deny that you can get a vulture to 1m EHP ! and still if you can reach this you wont have weapons or links on board ! but you can teach me better, i´m always interestet in learning things !

EDIT before first posting xD :
you can get a vulture to 1m EHP but this is a fit you cant use for anything and its extraordinary expensive to have no usage !

@James_Baboli

T2 ships fit for buffer are almost always able to get huge numbers out

but its a difference if you get 500k EHP AND 2500 DPS or 500k EHP and maybe 800 - 1000 DPS !
i dont have any problems with the hugh EHP marauders can reach ! ive got a problem with their DPS and being 2-3 ships in 1 with their DPS !

@James_Baboli

Feeding a marauder a fight

sometimes you just got baitet … i´m fine with baiting itself but i hate marauders they come because your both fleets are quite equal and they had to use more strategy to kill you ! then they just call 2-3 marauder alts and your own fleet is fugged because they gain around 6k - 9k DPS extra with only a few ships !

@James_Baboli

The biggest issue I can see is when they’re running only moderately more tank than absolutely necessary for PVE content and potentially rocking 4k plus DPS.

and thats the reason why the RoF bonus needs to be halfed or even completly eliminated !

[Syzygium]

@James_Baboli

Mostly how it effects acceleration with prop mods. Thus my desire for a hair (5-15m/s) more base speed, which doesn’t do anything under bastion which is where you have issue with it.

imho the higher mass and as a result slower acceleration and less max speed with propmods is one part where FactionBS can outperform Marauders, so it is imho a good balance that they are now slower than regular battleships. I really like the idea that T1 BS shine in Bang/Buck, FactionBS increase your performance on almost all levels (DPS, eHP, cap, fitting etc…) over T1 for a higher pricetag and still offer higher mobility than a Marauder. The Marauder on the other hand concentrate on Damage/Tank but suffers huge drawbacks in it’s mobility.

If it was up to me, I had reduced the MJD reactivation delay bonus down to 50% (from 70%) to make sure they are the least mobile ship on grid. Because they already are undisputed king in the area they can project, there is no need to let them reposition quickly to shift that area around.

[James_Baboli]

@Vuhdo_Rin

why do you need more speed ? xD doesnt make sense … youre fast ennough with all marauders ! there is absolutley no need for more speed !

Because I am using them for PVE which includes 65km burns regularly, and they’re outpaced by newbies in geddons unless I run an abyssal MWD.

@Vuhdo_Rin

no … with the e-war resistance and the rep bonus the Bastion module were used quite a lot ! at this time they werent fleet pvp ships so they dont come in 50+ gang sizes with bastion modules ! they were solo and small scale or PvE shps !

Yeah, no. Unless you were using them to replace a carrier, or tossing them into anoms which were notorious for particularly hellish EWAR, the bastion module was mostly a solo pvp thing, and that was rare.
As for proliferation, it’s like capital proliferation or t3c proliferation, and like HAC proliferation before that. They had a high compared to average SP requirement, but that was reached by a critical mass (made massively easier by injectors) and so they’re now in much more common use. Any tool which grants an advantage at a cost reasonable for the entities doing the fighting will be used.

@Vuhdo_Rin

you could have reachted this tank at the point where they implemented the bastion module ! problem with actual marauder is that they have ulta power rep AND ultra power DPS !

The 10k DPS tank is also not sustainable, absent some really expensive setups and requires a crystal pod to keep up. It only takes a few minutes to break if you have the DPS to force it to be running at more than 50%.

@Vuhdo_Rin

no … its pretty easy to reach the 2500 dps with the 500k EHP for a buffer fit fleet paladin !
yes armor ships regular have less DPS then shield ships but the 2500 DPS is a minimum ! shield fits can reach way more and if you fit expensive then way more then this ! but if you field a marauder fleet then “expensive” isnt a problem !

Exactly. They’re a massive investment, similar to the capital umbrellas nullblocks have operated under for more than a decade.

@Vuhdo_Rin

and how much DPS do you get out of this 300k DPS fit ?

Without going to weapon supports , but with pyro II, about 750 on a ship that is a relative fraction of the cost of a marauder and a bare fraction of the skills too. It also will ADC to almost 1m EHP

@Vuhdo_Rin

i deny that you can get a vulture to 1m EHP ! and still if you can reach this you wont have weapons or links on board ! but you can teach me better, i´m always interestet in learning things !

EDIT before first posting xD :
you can get a vulture to 1m EHP but this is a fit you cant use for anything and its extraordinary expensive to have no usage !

If I can choose 2 links to run on a vulture that you effectively can’t break without overwhelming DPS on grid, that’s a use in and of itself.

@Vuhdo_Rin

but its a difference if you get 500k EHP AND 2500 DPS or 500k EHP and maybe 800 - 1000 DPS !
i dont have any problems with the hugh EHP marauders can reach ! ive got a problem with their DPS and being 2-3 ships in 1 with their DPS !

They aren’t. One of the big things is that they’re a single point source. It may be that they run a fleet of these, but while say, a fleet paladin setup can run pretty good buffer and DPS, unless they are then catching massive reps when they leave bastion, each one is vulnerable to being defeated in detail from being unable to receive direct help, and each of those ships can be effectively neutered with reasonable ease if you’re willing and able to drop some heavy neut boats on them. And the same argument, even more so, can be applied to dreads or supers or titans.

@Vuhdo_Rin

sometimes you just got baitet … i´m fine with baiting itself but i hate marauders they come because your both fleets are quite equal and they had to use more strategy to kill you ! then they just call 2-3 marauder alts and your own fleet is fugged because they gain around 6k - 9k DPS extra with only a few ships !

So drop capitals on them instead? They’re an expensive doctrine which requires either significantly profitable activity to replace, or a massive support farm to maintain if they take losses. If you don’t feed things they can kill reasonably easily to them, the same bastion that makes them immobile and gives them their DPS you complain about also makes them vulnerable enough to bigger fish. I’m sure dreads rocking potentially 18k DPS for a blap moros can break those fleet fit paladins, since both are immobile while doing their high end damage.

[Syzygium]

@James_Baboli

Because I am using them for PVE which includes 65km burns regularly, and they’re outpaced by newbies in geddons unless I run an abyssal MWD.

Yeah, thats exactly how it is supposed to be. It’s intentional. Because you tank/deal two or three times the damage they can and thus can use a lot more damage/application mods to farm faster while easily maintaining enough tank to run the content.

[Vuhdo_Rin]

@James_Baboli

Because I am using them for PVE which includes 65km burns regularly, and they’re outpaced by newbies in geddons unless I run an abyssal MWD.

then its just a YOU problem ! i use also a marauder and i dont have any inssues to move to the next pocket ! why ? because i know how to manage my bastion cycle … !

@James_Baboli

Yeah, no. Unless you were using them to replace a carrier, or tossing them into anoms which were notorious for particularly hellish EWAR, the bastion module was mostly a solo pvp thing, and that was rare.

simply no xD e-war is a big thing and because of that they nerfed it for the bastin modules ! if you cant jam or tracking disrupt a marauder then youre only chance to kill it is overwhelming in manpower and this is not always possible … !

and btw… all missionrunners in HS had used the bastion modules because they hatet to get jammed, tracking disrupted or sensor damped and yes … PvE was the most usage before they buffed marauders !

@James_Baboli

The 10k DPS tank is also not sustainable, absent some really expensive setups and requires a crystal pod to keep up. It only takes a few minutes to break if you have the DPS to force it to be running at more than 50%.

if you drop a 20 man gang in your solo marauder … then yes ! you will die … maybe you need to talk about the reality ! and the reality is, that you dont engage with a marauder if youre sure to get killed !
if you spot a small gang and chose to fight them then you know that you can win this fight unless they got reinforcements !

@James_Baboli

Exactly. They’re a massive investment, similar to the capital umbrellas nullblocks have operated under for more than a decade.

they are not a massive investment oO they are about 2-3b with a regular setup and capitals are more then 5b+ ( if CCP doesnt change the materials again )

if you go far over the regular setup to reach more then the 500k and 2,5k dps then you have to invest more but not on the regular setups !

@James_Baboli

Without going to weapon supports , but with pyro II, about 750 on a ship that is a relative fraction of the cost of a marauder and a bare fraction of the skills too. It also will ADC to almost 1m EHP

naa … show the fit or its a lie ! you cant have on a sac 750 DPS with 300k EHP ! its not possible !
but as i said before … you can teach me better !

@James_Baboli

If I can choose 2 links to run on a vulture that you effectively can’t break without overwhelming DPS on grid, that’s a use in and of itself.

usage without any prop mod ? usage without a cap booster ? this has absolutley no usage !

@James_Baboli

They aren’t. One of the big things is that they’re a single point source.

they are ! xD maybe if you would actual doing PvP then you would know ! but you decide to lose 33b lokis ok that was a bit unfair xD but fact is your char is not involved at PvP at all and as i only know this YOU are not involved in PvP and at this fact you cant know … ! i know the fact they are an equivalent of 2-3 other ships because i fighted more then once against marauders !

@James_Baboli

So drop capitals on them instead?

ooohhhhh … now you solved the problem ! … WTF oO do you realize that not every group in eve has a capital umbrella like the big nullsec corps ? do you realize that not every space you can drop capitals ?
do you realized that this marauder fleet maybe have backup and will counterdrop your cap fleet ? xD
this statement of yours is worthless …

@James_Baboli

18k DPS for a blap moros can break those fleet fit paladins, since both are immobile while doing their high end damage.

you know a paladin can just leave bastion and move away from your blap moros ? xD and if you only drop one moros then you will lose this moros in a very short period of time

[Arthur_Aihaken]

Honestly, I’d be fine with just removing the 60-second combat timer after deactivating bastion.