Best setup for l4

(Anderson Geten) #41

if you make obvious mistakes I tell you, because it is for advices no for “what do you think is funny”.

indeed, I was wrong, the pith L have better ehp/GJ than the T2, while still requiring less fitting.

I did not say to remove 3 rigors, I said to use T2 rigors instead of T1, and then you don’t have the fit for a third, may as well use a flare or cap rig.

the amount of DPS provided by the last DDA/BCU is very low, and rather a sig amp would make it easier to apply /target faster/further/with more flex.

Just because you are too stupid to use EFT does not mean everybody with a brain is an “eft warrior”, moron.

No it does not. it almost never can have a 100% application unless sacrificing tank or raw DPS (precision+double painter+rigor t2+guidance precision scripted). The kronos on the other hand CAN have perfect application, provided the rats are going in a straight line - missile ships just can’t. you apply 8% of your missile DPS to a frig going 300 m/s, and 2.2% to a frig going 1000 m/s. with 2 T2 rigors and one flare. with 3 rigors it goes down to 6.8 and 2%.
Learn to use EFt and then you can talk about “EFT warrior”, mister “I’m proud to be a retard”.

(Dread Saboteur) #42

Fit 1/4 of a gun :))

(Arthur Aihaken) #43

Yes, the Leshak only requires one gun and has instant reload. Ammo tends to be a tad expensive however, and you can’t split guns against multiple smaller targets - so clears take longer. A Triglavian Marauder would definitely be the ticket.

(Nolak Ataru) #44

Ah, my apologies. Yes, it might be worth it to get T2 Rigors for the application, but the application difference is almost negligible in my testing. If you’re constantly pulling Angel missions with elite frigates, then the swap might be worth it due to the base speed.

If you fly it right, you don’t need the extra scan res, and the final DDA / BCS adds about 70 DPS which makes it worth it to clear sites as fast as possible.

Do you not see the painter and 2x Omnis on the Rattle? I can assure you that with the hull bonus and the 2x Omnis, Ogres apply quite well to mission rats.

The Kronos “can” have perfect application… provided the rat’s AI is replaced with the AI of a brand new EVE player, is what you’re saying.

(Arthur Aihaken) #45

If we’re critiquing fits, three T1 rigors on your Rattlesnake fit is not an optimal setup. A pair of two T2 rigors and a T1 flare is actually more effective. Yes, you have a single target painter - but even with the rigors and flare damage application is still pitiful with Fury ammunition against anything but structures and slow-moving battleships.

The deflection fields are fine, but this gives you almost no protection against EM or explosive damage - so it’s very much region/NPC specific. Yes, you can swap those out as missions dictate - but my Kronos fit is omni-damage.

Insofar as the rest of the fit is concerned, it lacks any propulsion module. If you don’t mind slow boating between gates at around 120 m/s…

(Anderson Geten) #46

I can assure you than even with painter, the missiles don’t apply 100%, which means that the whole rattle won’t have 100% application. even just putting the cruise on BS and the drones on smaller, some BS will go too fast/ will be too small for your cruise to apply 100% (and since your painter helps the drones …) Plus of course you do not factor the drones moving into account, only sentries can have 100% application.

I tell you, the rats AI is pretty dumb. it’s “choose a target, try to get in orbit range, sometimes uses the mwd, shoot the target, sometimes switch”.

Most of the times the frigates will go straight at you, because their orbit range is 10ish km

(Arthur Aihaken) #47

And let’s not forget, switching to sentries knocks several hundred paper DPS off that fit. For all intents and purposes, the Rattlesnake is a 1200-1400 DPS ship (the same as many Faction or T2 battleships).

(Nolak Ataru) #48

Still does more than your Kronos, and swapping to Gardes drops DPS to 1557.

(Arthur Aihaken) #49

Yes, well - what you may have in a slight DPS advantage (and that’s all it is - slight) you lack in mobility.

(Nolak Ataru) #50

500 dps difference is anything but slight, my friend. You also have a mobility issue with the Bastion module which locks you down for 60 seconds at a time. If you come across a mission where you need mobility in the Snake you can easily swap a midslot for a prop mod, or just continue to kill stuff as you make your way to the outgate.

(Arthur Aihaken) #51

Paper DPS. There’s a big difference between applied DPS and what you think you’re getting. 1687 DPS for my Kronos fit then. And unlike your Rattlesnake, mine actually moves faster than 120 m/s.

L4 mission income depends on both the missions you choose and how fast you’re able to complete them. That includes travel to and from mission objectives, in-game jumps and travel between objectives.

My Kronos fit deals less damage but excels in all the other requirements, and with a 48km tractor range I can usually snag most mission objectives without having to manuever significantly. For other missions I can simply drop in a MJD.

(Nolak Ataru) #52

Yes. You also get paper 1k DPS, which coupled with your reduced tracking because no Marauder V, would be applied at an abysmal rate. The Rattlesnake has more application mods, better tracking (for drones), better application for missiles, costs less, and is more mobile. My Rattlesnake is moves at 120 m/s while your Marauder moves at 0 m/s thanks to Bastion.

if you want, I can make a Kronos fit for you that has better applied DPS than your current fit.

(Anderson Geten) #53

the angular speed of a frigate running towards a 10km orbit at 1000 m/s and being 50km away is 1000 * 10 000 / (50 000)^2 = 0.004 rad. multiply it by 40 000 and divide it by 40 (the frig sig) and you get a 4 evasion value (angular*40k/sig).

The kronos with no implant, no tracking mod, no bastion, no drug, has on a mega neutron blaster loaded with null, a 6.7 tracking. that means, a 0.5^( ( 4 / 6.7) ^2 ) = 0.78 hit quality, thus a (0.78^2+0.78+0.05)/2 = 72% application. With 2 mag stabs, it’s an effective 575 DPS on the incoming kamikaze.
as I told you, the cruise missiles have less than 10% application on smaller targets, so your 800 DPs is actually 80 DPs on that target. At max, with two rigors T2 and a flare T1 and painter T2. not factoring in overshot.
Then, your heavy drones require the time to travel, and won’t have such a good application as the kronos. That’s why we say your PAPER 1600 DPs is irrelevant, as long as you encounter small targets.

of course, this is with a fast frigate, with a small sig, and orbiting 10km. frigates that fast usually orbit closer, and activate mwd which makes a huge sig bloom - on the opposite, frigates mwd on the rattle makes same DPS, because missiles factor in sig/speed which does not really change.

(Arthur Aihaken) #54

No, I’m getting almost 1700 paper DPS with Void (close to 1400 paper DPS with Null). Applied DPS varies, but it’s typically around 1100-1200 DPS (with drones). Yes, I’m sure you can improve on my Kronos fit. I could also point out that beyond a certain point an increase in tracking doesn’t really offer much of a benefit.

So yes, I could swap out the sensor booster for another range-scripted tracking computer. What I lose in lock time, however - typically means I can’t take advantage of sniping smaller targets at range. I could also drop the Hyperspacial rig for a tracking one, but again - I’m hitting small targets just fine out past 15km.

I could drop the large cap battery for a MJD, but I only really need that for 1 or 2 missions. I could add a 4th mag stab but I only gain a token amount of DPS and I think a RAH or energized membrane is a better choice.

Finally, I could also mention that a dual grappler-web combo works great for most events (but not most L4 missions).

(Junara) #55

Whats your L4 mission fit for the Kronos?

(Arthur Aihaken) #56

I don’t have Pyfa handy, but I run 4x T2 neutron blaster cannons in 2 pairs, a 500MN MWD, Faction large cap battery, 2x T2 tracking computers, 3x Faction mag stabs, Deadspace large armor rep, RAH and 2x mission-specific hardeners. T2 Aerator in the rigs and the usual +5/+6 gunnery implants plus EM-805. You can run a tracking rig if so desired in the spare slot. I like Ascendancies but YMMV.

If you focus on missions where you can mitigate most damage on your shields you can run a pair of tracking enhancers instead of the armor hardeners and a sensor booster instead of the battery. Boosters are optional but aren’t really cost effective (even if you’re very proficient at running missions quickly).

(Fluffy Moe) #57

Overall just plain L4 security missions Gila. Has the added bonus of being meta for Abyss runs as well as other uses. Doesn’t do full clears as fast as battleships, and can not solo epic arcs unless you multibox or duo, but vast majority of missions you pick up will not be the big ones, they will be medium or even small sized and battleships lose too much time due to their clunkiness on doing these on per time basis. Does require some active gameplay, you will have to learn how to manage drone agro as well as their ranges and other aspects and how to somewhat decent speed tank on some of the content.

Best T3C is Loki. HAM + armor or HAM + shield both work very well. Tengu a bit below that because its main damage bonus is kinetic so it doesn’t do as well as Loki vs targets that are resistant to kinetic damage. T3Cs also open up other PvE options to you such as the ones that require some scanning or hacking and they do so better then Stratios.

Most fun, Vedmak, hands down, no other ship currently in the game is as fun to do L4 sec missions in as a Vedmak, by far leaps and bounds. But its not optimal ISK wise and requires some fancy flying, a lot of speed + transversal tanking while retaining short range on your targets.

Drekavac is 2nd best on the fun list and has the added bonus of being actually very useful for fleets. It has armor and DPS of a T1 Battleship but is a lot less clunky and you can have a command burst on it. Though it requires a very active playstyle due to its weapon range while using Occult.

Most reliable for soloing tougher L4 content such as Angel Extravaganza bonus room and epic arcs, double prop Navy Scorpion with cruise missiles. It has 8 mids allowing it to have a very high tank and still retain double prop. Double prop utility is huge for a Battleship. You can get slightly better tank on other battleships, but then you have to sacrifice either the double prop or DPS application making it not worth it.

Best on average big mission full clears, Rattlesnake. Just your average cruise or HRML + drones. Cruise + drones you will be mostly range tanking everything, while RHML + drones has better application, better raw DPS and bigger tank for more brawling style. Both variants are good.

Ravens, Navy Scorp, Nightmares, bunch of other Battleships do OK and are comparable coming in and out at various situations but yielding same average results, exception being the Navy Scorp with its extra tank.

Burners are in their own category and there are several big threads on them that you should really check out if you intent to do them.

Best for lazy play for L4s, Golem. For me its too slow and so clunky it is absolutely not even remotely worth it, but some people like it.

(Buoytender Bob) #58

In regards to full clears, which I always take to mean all enemy ships destroyed and looted/salvage (yvmv), RS/Scorpion just doesn’t have the cargo bay capacity to store all the generated materials. Add the fact that when using my Kronos I 95% of time use drones only to salvage, speeding up every clean sweep of a room before moving on. There are plenty of good ships that can run level 4 missions smoothly, but the number of ships that can not only destroy an entire room quickly and then strip it clean, are much smaller. Running solo and choosing to clean sweep after yourself, all the while doing it quickly and at reduced risk, leaves your only choice as a Marauder. Since a few certain salvage items are currently worth a good deal, current personal record is 23+M for salvage alone for one mission, not having to either multibox or return with a salvage ship speeds up and reduces the complexity of my time spent.

Bottom line is first determine how you want to run them in regards to effort, time, safety, and what rewards you are interested in gathering. Then choose your ship.

(Quor Dresden) #59

Looks like it comes down to rattlesnake vs. Kronos. Both have solid dps. Kronos has better overall application, but just let the rattlesnakes missles go after larger targets and wardens go after smaller targets at distance of course and it works just fine.

Kronos will take longer to train, rattlesnake can be effective with much lower skill set.

Kronos has bigger cargo hold and can salvage much better while clearing. Making it far better for full clear.

Really about personal preference and skills. Both very nice ships. I enjoy flying both.

(elitatwo) #60

…which are most Gallente tech 2 ships and some Amarr ones. So it is not a bad as it looks.

Drones, maybe but when were heavy missiles buffed in application? Those rapid jesus launchers may apply 20% of the damage most of the time.