Ok, and you didn’t answer a single bit of my question.
Sorry, which question?
This one? Because when you ask a question and then immediately provide an answer yourself it looks like your question is rhetorical.
Bounty hunters will catch any ship the criminal wants to fly in highsec.
They can shoot a ganker’s catalyst as they are setting up for a gank.
They can shoot their tornados near trade hubs.
Their talos’ before ganking mission runners.
Their thrashers on stargates.
Their fleet ships by third partying a war dec fight. Their battleships when they are structure bashing.
There are obviously even more…
The point is the bounty kill right remains until it is paid out. It is far more difficult to remove than a simple kill right. So it can be in place in any of the above scenarios that the player is involved in after the criminal act.
So you are expecting a bounty hunter to spend time hunting for… a 50% payout of a catalyst, except actually it is a 35% pay out of a catalyst if they attack before the gank since insurance will happen, and they still probably won’t get it because most gankers don’t loiter on grid, and the ones that do tend to be on trade hubs ready to instadock anyway since kill rights are already a thing. EDIT: Actually using your revised ‘avoid insurance scams’ numbers, that’s a 20% pay out of a catalyst, which drops to 0 pay out ummmm, always.
And to somehow catch the talos from… ummm, that tethered structure which they then warp directly onto the mission runner from?
And ummmm, show me a ganker who actually regularly partakes in a structure bash please, also note that logi can rep them until they are ready to engage you back in this case. While logi can not rep your ship while you attack them. So they can refit that battleship to kill you as needed.
This was the point behind asking what are honest use cases that you see this happening on, because your use cases didn’t seem to actually be consistent with reality earlier in the thread.
EDIT: And as per the above note, a pay out low enough to avoid insurance scams (20%) then means you never get a pay out for your kill unless you wait for them to start a gank, and make the final kill before concord kills them.
@Nevyn_Auscent your tone is crappy and juvenile, and your objections are expected but also debatable.
Your objections are difficulties that exist in the current system. This system adds additional opportunities to engage the targets. They are not single use. Kill rights will be more common, and affect more pilots.
My numbers would pay out 60% of an uninsured catalyst + 100% destroyed module value, because why would the ganker buy insurance when setting up a gank, knowing that they will be concorded and not paid out?
An insured catalyst would pay out 100% of the base destroyed value only. You also get the loot.
The bounty hunter can have multiple targets at a time, and they will probably operate in similar locations where ganking is common.
So there should be multiple easy to kill targets.
If they are targeting mission runners only in a single system then you have two options:
When they warp to the mission runner, warp there yourself too and engage with a hard counter before they attack the mission runner.
Or if they are targeting in multiple systems they can be caught between systems.
Criminals are not only 100% gankers. They may get involved in other areas of eve.
They could be a Wardec Corp who commit criminal acts sometimes. They will structure bash sometimes.
That was just an example.
And regarding logi, in a limited engagement, which this would be, then if the ganker’s friend reps him then they become suspect and then anyone in system can engage the logi.
Also in a structure bash how can they refit? They would be scrammed so they can’t warp off and can’t refit in combat.
As I said before, the payout is not at 20% for all kills. Insured payouts simply remove the payout (+10%) and pay the rest. So you can get profit from insured ships (assuming they have modules) and alot more for uninsured.
This is only true when the limited engagement is two ways.
Learn your mechanics first, before you come with ‘suggestions’ and then call the fact that you are getting called out for repeatedly leaving holes in your ideas juvenile. At this point the way you keep launching into personal attacks and your numbers keep jumping wildly around, I’m done, your idea has had holes poked in it repeatedly now and all your fixes just make it worse and worse, the current system is better than your proposal.
I just looked up kill rights again. Activating a kill right sets the target to suspect for 15 minutes. If you remote rep a suspect you inherit the suspect timer. Which bit is wrong with what I said?
I didn’t call out your objections as juvenile, I called your tone juvenile and your objections debatable, you should read more carefully.
My numbers haven’t jumped around wildly. I was responding to valid concerns about insurance fraud and adjusting the figures to compensate.
I misspoke in my last post. In the case of an uninsured catalyst the payout would be 56% not 60% for the hull (I forgot to remove the additional 10% on top of the insurance payout)
The bounty kill right acts like a kill right that is removed when fully paid out, not after a single ship kill.
The payout is 100% of the combined base value of the hull and destroyed contents, minus 110% of any insurance paid out.
This pays out more than the current system against the majority of insured ships and alot more against uninsured ships.
The current bounty system can exist side by side with this.
OK if you’re not going to continue with the discussion, your earlier objections were useful in refining the system.
I stand by my current incarnation of the bounty kill right system, detailed in the post above.
It pays more, is more interactive, improves bounty satisfaction and adds additional content to eve.
I think that’s a better system than the current one, and they can live side by side. If you don’t agree, we’ll agree to disagree.
If anyone else has comments I am still up for the discussion.
I made a post in the CSM assembly section to see if there is any traction up there with the refined version without the long winded journey to get there.
I’m happy to discuss your thoughts there aswell.
It is apparent to even me, you have little experience in the mechanics and game play involved.
I suggest you go become a career ganker for a bit…cause as @Nevyn_Auscent has already mentioned there is many many holes in your proposal and you can not fix them by adding a restriction for each one since doing so proves the proposal is crap anyway.
and no I am not going to get into lenghty discussion with you either, you have no clue what you are talking about simply because you do not have the experience to understand.
What mechanics are you talking about specifically?
I have been playing Eve with some breaks in between since 2008. Mechanics change.
The only mechanic @Nevyn_Auscent took issue with was about Logi repairs and so I double checked for changes:
“Activating the kill right will enact a Suspect flag on the target, making them a legal target to all pilots in their vicinity for 15 minutes.”
“In most cases, using assistance modules on another player will cause you to inherit all of his flags…”
“…Using assistance modules will pass on all flags to the assistor, possibly preventing them from docking/jumping for the same interval as their assistee…”
These results support my understanding, that activating a kill right (or in this case, a bounty kill right) will make the target suspect. If their logi reps them, the logi is now also suspect.
The early objections were about insurance scams. The only “restriction” that was added is simply reducing the bounty payout by 110% of the insurance payout. Making it still pay out more on average than the current system.
The later objections that he had, were about being not very profitable/not having enough targets.
This isn’t a hole in the system, and I added no restrictions. I said that it is no worse than the current system, it just adds additional opportunities to do so.
If he doesn’t think bounty hunting is worth the trouble then that’s ok. Some people don’t think ganking is worth the trouble, yet lots of people still do it.
My refined proposal is relatively simple. There are very few specific restrictions. It consists of 2 parts:
A combined Kill Right/bounty.
And an agent to receive them from.
The payout has been adjusted to severely discourage abuse.
so the payout is 0 ISk, just a KB record? if not then as others attempted informing you…it is not beyond abuse.
The current bounty payout is 20% of destroyed value. Not 0 ISK.
I said multiple times, the payout is 100% destroyed base value - 110% insurance.
So an empty hull with no upgraded insurance would pay out 56% of the hull base value.
An empty hull with platinum insurance would pay out nothing for the ship.
A fitted ship would pay out 100% of the module base value on top.
@LeeWoonJae if you want to propose a good bounty system, try following these steps:
- Keep it simple
- Make it worth doing
- Don’t encourage people to abuse it
You’re currently having trouble with point 1, as I see a lot of restrictions, numbers and other things to stop abuse. Keep it simple!
It seems you’re not doing enough creative thinking for point 3. There are a lot of holes that we shouldn’t point out.
Try this: each time you propose something, try to take a step back and write down every way your system can be abused that you can think of. And then try to see if you can change your initial idea in such a way that these forms of abuse don’t happen.
It’s this last part where you seem to have trouble, and is likely what the others mean with ‘not enough experience yet’. You need to actually want to abuse this new system you created. How would you use it to your own benefit in a non-intended way?
Also, just putting up a restriction every time you find such a case of abuse will get you into trouble with point 1.
And in the end, if you have something that will not get abused and is simple, do a final check if it’s still worth doing for the bounty hunters. Probably it isn’t.
Let me take each one of your points 1 at a time.
The reason you see a lot of numbers seems to be because people are saying it’s abusable in certain ways and I’m illustrating those scenarios to show how it would work.
The two features are very simple in their basic forms:
Bounty kill right. This is just an upgraded kill right formed by handing in the original and paying your bounty.
Bounty agent. This is used to get the bounty kill right and randomly assign them to bounty hunters. This is intended to make bounty hunting more interactive for legitimate users and more hoops to jump through for ganking alts.
This is a difficult balance to achieve due to the ability to commit insurance fraud. I have achieved better returns for legitimate bounty hunters than the current system by:
Increasing payouts kills. Due to calculating bounty payouts based on actual insurance payouts not just a flat 20%. This improves payouts on under insured kills, and still punishes higher insured kills. The minimum loss for an attempt at insurance fraud is 10% of insurance payout.
Bounty hunters get to engage bounties in high sec without concord intervention. Kill rights only allow one kill then disappear. These don’t. More bounty kill rights hanging around means more targets.
I’ll have a look at making a list. But the forums are intended to provide an area to discuss these issues with player features. Others may notice something I’ve missed. So, I don’t think posting an early idea on forums is a bad idea. The ability to flesh it out is useful.
Let me help you a little bit…only a little…
Certain persons, like myself do HS industry…in a serious way.
They build things like any mining gear you can think of…
They also have gank alts…that acquire faction mining drones, or destroy said mining gear above…
They then either do it themselves on their mains or have their friends, or ppl like me put such stuff up on market(and give kickbacks to them).
The ganker community, wardc community, etc…have ppl that know the market, have contacts with others that deal with the market on a daily basis…basically the Combat PvPr’s run the market is the gist of what I am saying here. and thats all im going to say on the subject, at least more than enough hints at how things actually work that im willing to say.
Now if you want to travel down the rabbit hole…go get some real experience and not just book knowledge then come back with something other than the trainwreck of a proposal you already have here…by all means.
and this is the end me being in this thread cause i no longer feel like being civil.
I understand that the markets can be manipulated. And also that these are actively used to try and exploit insurance.
This is why the destroyed values are based on base values and not market values. The same way insurance is. CCP is in control of the base value. They can adjust the base values on their end to what they want it to pay.
My system is in no way more open to abuse than the current insurance system, or the current bounty payout system.
If CCPs base value figure is wildly manipulated, this is a problem with the base value. This would apply to insurance in general. This is up to CCP to monitor this (as they do).
If my system didn’t improve the payouts at all, just paid the usual 20% of base value that normal bounties do, then you still get a useful benefit. You get extended kill rights against pilots who committed illegal acts (that can’t be applied to innocents), so now you can shoot them in high-sec.
That change on it’s own is an improvement on the current system.
Honestly, Bounty Hunting could be a blast, but would need a game-changing update in reality. IMO, it would have to be similar to FW in terms of you enlist in it as a Bounty Hunter, and would involve Empire standings to determine who you could engage and where. Essentially it would allow pvp where an Empire NPC would normally engage a player or something. But I’m not articulate enough to really put it down on “paper”.
PLEASE BRING THE BOUNTY SYSTEM BACK AND MAKE IT LIKE THIS:
system fixed! everyone is happy!
- I bet that video has a whole lot of errors or is a useless bounty system since every system ever posted on the forums has either had exploits or been more useless than the current system.2
- Post your idea on the forum, don’t expect everyone else to run off and watch a video.
dont worry, i expect nothing
just wanted to update this here with a little something, i’m trying working on experimenting with a new system, won’t give out details yet. but wanted to have something more concrete in place before i bring it forward, but it might even re-work a whole bunch of suggestions I have already made and possibly look at removing kill rights from my suggestions entirely.
keep your eyes peeled for bounty hunting 3.0 some where and some time in the future
no idea when, only working with a concept for now, but will work something together in time.