Came back after 5 years.. i want solo a class 2 again but should i use a POS or citadel?

(Stinkin'Dick Larry) #1

This is my dilema… My main char has 40m sp, my alt has 15 before i quit the game in 2013. I solo’d class 2 wormholes when they came out by just putting a large amarr pos on a planet, with the basics like a corp hangar and ship bay and the rest of the mods were all guns and shield hardners… with enough fuel for a month at time.

I mainly mined and i made over a billion isk very quickly, but real life happened so i moved all my stuff out and quit the game, and then came back a few years later and did wormholes again in “2013”. I did the same thing as before, did alot of mining, hauling mercoxite ore back and forth to normal space and made a lot of money. Then quit again for 4 years. And here i am again.

I want to do wormholes again, but now with citadels im not sure how to go about this. I had people tell me in game that POS are done and some said you cant even anchor them anymore ? I noticed some modules are deactivated like silo’s and so forth.

So I took a look at citadels, and this is what is confusing me. Citadels seem weak as hell, 7m shields compared to 40m on my large POS, almost no weapons to speak of, and the only benefit i can see is you can dock now vs keeping ships in the bubble. The only thing i do like is the ability to refine my ore. I hated making 30 trips with hauler specially if i only had a low sector static to move hundreds of thousands of m3 worth of ore. Now i can refine it in the station without a penalty loss like POS’s used to have and save up huge amounts of minerals and move them all out in a few jumps.

But then the question of how easy it is to destroy the citadel from the videos ive seen 4 battle ships can kill one…

Is it worth solo’ing a class 2 like i used too? And if so… Should i do a POS again or a citadel. I cant afford the 100b one just the 1-2b citadel. Are pos’s really going away anytime soon, or am i safe to go with what i am more familier with. But then i do like again like the ability to refine in the citadel’s specially with no tax loss stealing my minerals thats the only reason why i would buy and set one up to save myself endless hours making so many jumps with unrefined ore.

Sorry for a long post but i need some guidance

(Rivr Luzade) #2

You cannot do anything with POS any longer: No ship storing, no production, no science, and POS are supposed to be retired completely soon™. Citadels are the way to go.

(Drago Shouna) #3

You need to take a looong look at the running costs of Citadels before deciding, they are way higher than a POS ever was.

It’s also a day to online it, and a week to offline it and remove it.

It costs hundreds of fuel blocks just to online a facility and more than a POS to keep it running. There’s the cost of the non removable rigs as well.

There’s also the fact that they are being made easier to kill via the timers ( you’ll have to look that up) so it’s potentially a very expensive loss mail.

(Vivianne Athonille) #4

One minor correction. It’s a day to online, not a week.

(Drago Shouna) #5

Corrected, thanks.

(Stinkin'Dick Larry) #6

I thought citadels running cost was free unless you use services like say ore reprocessing. Yes i knew about the 24hr timer to activate it, i dont like that, i mean who is online 24 hrs to watch that lol. But i guess its a risk.

How are they being made easier to kill are they changing the medium ones timer from 3 hours a week to something more ?

(Vivianne Athonille) #7

So an anchoring structure is only vulnerable for 15 minutes at the beginning and 15 minutes at the end of its anchoring (total time 24.5 hours).

Currently yes, they only use fuel if services are running. With the Upwell 2.0 release in a couple of months, any structure with no services running will have reduced HP and will skip the armor layer.

Also coming with Upwell 2.0, the shield layer will be vulnerable at all times, just like a POS. Structure owners will be able to set a weekday and hour when they are available to defend (think POCO but with a second option for weekday). For the armor layer, the selected hour will be respected, but it will occur the next day after the shield layer is removed (attacker picks the day, just like POCO). The final layer will be available at the weekday and hour selected by the structure owner.

Note that the upcoming January update will already include the settings for weekday and hour. They won’t do anything yet, but everyone is being warned to configure them prior to the Upwell 2.0 release as they will take effect immediately.

(Drago Shouna) #8

They are, but in your op you said you wanted to refine with it, that’s going to cost. You can’t just turn it on and off at will either…well you can but you have to pay the several hundred fuel block onlining fee again (I found a dev blog saying it’s 3 days worth of fuel to online a service module) or leave it using ?? blocks an hour.

I haven’t had one but I’m presuming you have to pay again if any services go offline btw.

However you look at it they’re expensive to run. Have a look through systems and there’s god knows how many sat offline, unfueled and abandoned.

(Stinkin'Dick Larry) #9

yea but i dont need to refine daily, cant i just keep it offline and online it when i refine my stack of ore. Even if putting it online takes 3 days of fuel if i online it once every say week or two… then 3 days of fuel is cheaper then 14 days of fuel yes ?

I just dont get why they made citadels to begin with, specially with such weak defenses when a POS has 10-20x more shield strength… Thats the only thing i dont like, and TBH what are the ODDS of someone attacking my citadel in a class 2 anyway, when i had my pos’s running in a class 2 by myself i never once had anyone attack them.

I did had roamers in the system for the sites but nothing else. The only thing i dont like about wormholes is how the asteroid belts are just there and you dont have to scan it down. Now it seems I have to actually break the wormholes down before i mine…

And yea from what i hear mining doesnt make much money anymore… but according to the mineral prices they seem the same as what they were before. I never liked running NPC sites in this game. My way of making money was to mine gas and ore and if i was in 0.0 sector id rat out -1.0 systems. Also it seems like hulks only have 2 mining lazers now vs 3 ? And my mackinaws i used in my class 2 i still have but i coulda swore they had 3 mining lazers as well didnt they ?

Anyway back to costs… Are you sure it costs more to keep a citadel running ? A large pos was like 500m a month almost if my citadel just has a refining array and weapons how would that cost more especially if i just offline the mining mod until im using it. I dunno i dont like any of the changes they have done to the game since i last played it just makes it seem like they wanted to stop people solo’ing. I solo because i dont trust a single person in this game not since my ceo back in 2008 stole 3b from me and left the corp back when the SMASH alliance was in Geminate… That kinda ruined it for me, i dont care if i lose 3b to my ■■■■ dying but people stealing from me is why i go solo.

(Drago Shouna) #10

Yep you can do it that way, the costs look to be 720 fuel blocks to online the servicing modules then 10 blocks per hour. Roughly 17m to online. Roughly 165m per module per month to keep online. You can use rigs to improve efficiency at a cost of roughly 600/700m for a T1, 2b+ for a T2 rig.

I was comparing the cost by leaving the pos offline until you needed it, I used mine just for refining/compression, it cost maybe 40 blocks of fuel a month and if you got wardecced it was easy to take down…or deathstar it :slight_smile:

I’m not a fan of them tbh, as a mainly solo player it would be a pain to try to defend it. You’ll more than likely get comments about you don’t deserve it if you can’t defend it blah blah blah.

Also bear in mind that there’s no asset safety in a WH, if it gets hit whatever is in it gets destroyed, or it drops…you lose everything you had in it.

Good Luck.

(Stinkin'Dick Larry) #11

Yea i dunno, but can Pos’s still be used, see i only need a Corp hangar and a ship bay, i never used any other services. And your right these stupid citadels and their other counterparts just seem stupid easy to kill, ive been watching videos where 4 battleships took one out without taking hardly any dmg.

4 Battleships wouldnt even attempt that with a large deathstar pos…

I dunno, i was thinking of buying 33$ in plex with the 15% off thing going on and selling it to have a bigger wallet then what i do now at 2B, and then re-subbing my main and alt. But to tell you the truth with what they have done by removing pos’s and making these crappy defenseless citadels on top of making ore fields exposed without having to scan down i dont know if i should bother playing this game anymore.

Kinda took the fun away from me, and now i feel forced to join a corp and risk all my stuff to someone who wants to steal from you

(Coralas) #12

Thats what I do with one of my refineries.

They are rate limited for damage which the pos wasn’t and currently have 2 timers where the pos has 1.

CCP put in the citadel
1 - to make configuration easier (they have a fitting window like a ship), so more people will use them
2 - to allow players to compete with npc station services
3 - to put the game through an ‘mmo’ treadmill event where people go out and do a lot of work to get back to where they were before. In an eve context this consumed a massive amount of minerals, pi and salvage.

In the years that have passed, evictions have become more of a thing.

The barges were tieracided, given 3 more distinct roles (which their t2 varients follow), and then adjusted. Also the rorquals role has changed to be best booster and best miner, which is why the mineral price hasn’t moved higher (people mine more stuff).

The 2 defining aspects of eve is that its a fleet game made in a sandbox. Not sure why coming back to do the exact same thing that bored you enough to leave is a good idea, not sure why you should not have learned more obvious ways to defend your stuff against theft, and not sure why you’d cordon off most of the game over something from so long ago.

I left after renting a solo system in 2014 (which I enjoyed for a while), but when I came back, I found something fun and different to do, that leveraged some of my old knowledge (and eventually my old characters), imo if you just do exactly what you used to do, it will get stale pretty quick.

(Stinkin'Dick Larry) #13

What else is there to do then, ive done the whole alliance thing, and its boring… Ive done the mining, womrhole thing and i still like it but now im hesitant with these citadels… The only thing i havent really done per say is join a pirate corp and kill people low sector, although i have done that solo.

Deff dont wanna get into building stuff or research that i know…

uhg i dunno. Sorry im being a drag man, thanks for the help/suggestions

(Drago Shouna) #14

I just checked Jita and you can still buy a POS and some arrays, that’s the much cheaper option obviously.

Personally I’d put up a tower and see what happens and take it from there.

(ISD Sakimura) #15

One of the main reasons that CCP started to develop the Upwell Structures was to get rid of the very old and obsolete legacy code. There have been talks about how to improve the POS mechanics on the forums for many years (atleast for 5 years as far as I can remember), so instead of making improvements on “bad” code they decided to completely rework the feature and make many new and specialized Upwell Structure (Future Vission of Structures - FanFest 2015):

  • Citadels - Forward Operating Base (FOB) type of structure, meant to be used as staging points in hostile space, as well as being Medium to XLarge Fortresses in your own space. Astrahus, Fortizar and Keepstar. As a FOB they’re replacing the “Deathstar” type of POS.

  • Engineering Complexes - Specialized for Researh and Manufacturing; Raitaru, Azbel and Sortiyo. Replaces POS modules like, Laboratories and various Manufacturing arrays.

  • Refineries - Specialized in Ore Reprocessing and Material Reactions; Athanor and Tatara. Replaces the POS modules like, Moon Harvesting Array, Silos, Reactors.

  • Advertizement Hubs - Details about it has yet to be revealed in DevBlog or otherwise, at this time. All available info is from FanFest 2015 and forward.

Can’t remember if there are anymore planned

So for your purpose a Astrahus/Raitaru with a StandUp Reprocessing Plant I will do just fine, it is relatively low cost, if you want to know the exact cost you’d have to simulate a fit in the Fitting Window. For the Structure cost alone, the Raitaru is the cheapest of them all at about 600 million ISK.

(Serenta Mystra) #16

Could you just leave the POS’s ingame? dropping 1b on a astra that can get shot down by 2 bombers if they see it anchoring… where as a 1bill death/dickstar will live forever! if fueled xD

(ISD Sakimura) #17

You could just leave your “DeathStar” POS until such time that CCP removes it and you get your compensation. Even with 3 pure DPS fit BS’s it will still take a long time to bash through the Shield, Armor and/or Structure of an Astrahus. Even longer only 2 Stealth Bombers. It’s more likely that during that time there could be some other visitors joining in on the bash or might even kill the attackers. Structures will have similar “vulnerability” as unfuled POS’s, meaning that they will skip the reinforcement timer between Shield and Armor. So long as you are actively playing the game there are relatively low chance for someone destroying your Citadel while you are away as it takes considerable longer to kill a Citadel than an unfueled POS.

(Lil' Brudder Too) #18

I used to solo kill ACTIVE POS’s for my ingame living. It didn’t take all that long. But that was also while they could defend themselves, which made target picking more important. The new structures can’t do jack squat on their own, and need an actual fleet to defend themselves. Which means that if it belongs to a small corp chances are it will not be defended.

The Astrahus is far from the old “Deathstar” POS…again, it can’t do jack on its own and still needs a fleet to defend it. The citadel weapons that are remotely effective are the AOE ones, but then they only get the cheapy frigate kills.

These things also cost more fuel to operate than the old medium POS’s that were common for small corps to run. All these fuel comparisons versus large POS are misleading at best.

These new structures, there is no relatively ‘safe’ mode for when we as players have to spend a longer than normal period out of game. The old POS’s i could put in deathstar mode (devoting 100% to guns/ecm/hardners) if i was going to be gone for a week or so due to life, and be relatively certain that it wouldn’t be messed with. These new ones…nope. I would be constantly worried that it wouldn’t be there when i came back because it simply has no defenses and NEEDS a fleet to be its defense.

The new structures were designed to piss on the little guys, plain and simple. In order to operate and defend one you need more bodies than you used to, simple as that.

My main used to do massive industry in a HS POS, which never got threatened over 3+ years of use, then CCP added lots of extra costs and messed up industry stuffs, lowering profit margins significantly. Then these new structures…no way in hell i’d be able to run one of these as their bonuses are too specialized, i’d need like 2-3 of them to get the proper bonuses to everything i was building/researching…and thats just ridiculous. And now if i wanted to get back into industry, i’d have to manually search for each citadel that had the modules/rigs that i wanted to use, then truck my stuff who knows how far between multiple structures…again…no thank you.

I’ll gladly occasionally mooch off leftovers as an extremely casual alpha now…

(Duo Roman) #19

During the very few hours in a week it is vulnerable.
The structure itself with you commanding it may be enough against a small group.

(Vivianne Athonille) #20

Well, for about the next two months anyway. Then structures become like a POS with the shield layer always vulnerable.