[CAVTT] The Test of Faith

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
,
81

Yes, if the Empire has truly strayed, then something will happen sooner or later to kick some sense into the sinners, be it a rebellion, a Drifter invasion, or another Elder Fleet.

A person is calling for a possible civil war. God may or may not choose this particular person and their possible followers to be the locust swarm that descends as punishment, instead of the Triglavians, or a random nova explosion, or anything else.

But a human being is not a locust, or a nova, or a Drifter drone. It is their choice to call or not to call on themselves the dubious honor of being the punishing plague, knowing of the terrible possible consequences of their personal actions.

It seems that Samira accepts that and is firm in her choice of becoming the plague, so, that’s all. The rest will be as God wills it.

3 Likes
82

The people of expertise are the ones that are Holders and/or members of the institutions of the Empire, like the Theology Council. So either, there isn’t really a way of figuring out the specifics, or they are all so corrupt that civil war will be inavoidable, it seems to me. And then, where to get the non-corrupt experts to set up the specifics of the system?

As I see it, you give a list of things to do and simply claim that they are going to remedies to what you make out as corrupt. You can give no mechanisms that they will work by, not assessment of their probablity of success, no feasible way of operationalizing them.

Let’s look at what you propose in regard to Scripture:
How do you know which Scripture has been altered? How can you be sure the Tetrimonic Scripture isn’t altered? How can you be sure historians won’t change Scripture and claim it to be original for their own gain? How do you know historians that try to be faithful to the original message don’t make mistakes?

How do you know that Scripture before the departure of the Sefrim and the loss of the Avetat are not just our attempts at understanding the truth, without full clarity into God’s will? How can you justify to give them the kind of exalted position you deem them worthy of?

How can we understand the scripture that is not to be altered 10000 years from now, without translating it? Language change happens. If we translate it, how is that not an alteration, an interpretation? And even so, how is reading the original not an act of interpretation, capable of changing the meaning?

I’m not really an expert, being mostly busy with being the head of my family and trying to work on just being a better person, but I studied some theology in the past and I can’t see any way of how that is going to work out the way you want it to. It just doesn’t.

Either, you will tear down Scripture entirely running down the slippery slope you erect here. Or you just establish a canon of texts that has been choosen more hastily than the one we have now and a core of it that has been more or less arbitrarily chosen to be priviledged and locking it in a state where it’s dead and ready to rot away, yet unable to do so.

It’s really a non-solution.

3 Likes
83

A [hu]man. Singular.
Your readiness to see the Empire burn, instead of turning to inspect critically excatly that readiness within your self, is chaining your soul down.

2 Likes
84

We can never be sure of anything. All that we can do is what we feel is right, and pray that God will guide us justly.

But the error, as everyone always says, is doing things individually. We live in a system today that, despite the claims of unity, places extreme power in the individual. There are bodies, like the Theology Council, but they are pushed and pulled by individuals, by Holder politics and power plays.

What we need, is to include more voices in the process, and do the the best that we can to ensure that those voices are without political ties.

Amash-Akura’s empire was the closest Amarr has ever been to God’s true will. That is why the sefrim showed themselves to him, why God spoke directly to him, and why he was gifted with Avetat and Ametat, which enlightened him even further beyond human limits. Amash-Akura was gifted with true understanding. His writings are the least tarnished by human ignorance of all Scripture.

It may, perhaps, be relevant that it only be read in its original form, in order to decipher its true meaning.

85

This is a movement to fix Amarr, not to abandon it.

It was omitted so that I would not say a lie. I am not obedient to the will of the Empress. The supreme power the Imperial Throne has wielded since the Moral Reforms is in defiance of the holy system that Amash-Akura established. My obedience, instead, is to the will of God. God is the supreme leader.

A just and pious emperor, and the nobility, have a place in Amarr. They were entities created by Amash-Akura, the closest of all people to God’s will. But their supreme power must be checked, for they, just like the lowest slave, are equally vulnerable to sin and corruption. Until such a time, I cannot in good conscience swear fealty to them.

86

How do you know that? You know from Scripture, Scripture that has been been possibly corrupted, as you pointed out. Actually, as there has been a lot of time passed since back then, there has been the most opportunity to corrupt it, much more than is the case with less old Scripture, I could easily argue. I could say, younger documents of Scripture are probably less corrupted and we have a better situation to check them for corruption.

Maybe Amash-Akura’s empire wasn’t the closest Amarr has ever been to God’s true will, maybe the sefrim didn’t show themselves to him, maybe they weren’t God’s messangers, but some alien race that posed as such. Maybe God didn’t speak directly to Amash-Akura. Maybe Ametat and Avetat never existed. Physically. Maybe they were not even metaphorically in Amash-Akura’s posession. Maybe it’s all a fabrication of corrupt people?

You just chose to accept them as such over other parts of Scripture and not even for a particularly good reason, because, well, if there was such a particularly good reason, theologians would have risen the case already for that priveleged status and prevailed in theological debate.

Your arguments against Scripture are a saw at the branch of the tree you want to sit on. Your position is incoherent and self-defeating. That can’t be good theology. It isn’t theology at all and thus, justly, should be rejected.

3 Likes
87

I think it’s abundantly clear at this point that Pilot Mithra has no interest in ever learning about what the manifesto brings light to, let alone contribute against the continued corruption and abuses that began as far back as Dochuta Karsoth. That in mind, whereas she espouses that waiting patiently for the situation to resolve itself, the “history” she is so eager to use as reinforcement to her arguments shows that inaction was not favorable to the Amarr. It took the Elder Fleet’s invasion to have Karsoth scurry away to the Blood Raiders, the Khanid Royal Navy to hunt him down, and Empress Jamyl to finally execute him. The Empire tried waiting patiently and it allowed Karsoth immeasurable power.

Corruption is not something one waits patiently to deal with. It is certainly not something one looks in the mirror and blames oneself for. This is manipulation of the highest order by a woman who is complacent with the abuses outlined in Kernher’s manifesto and who claims, “Why have these questions not been asked?” whilst offering no answer or resolutions herself. She is apparently perfectly fine with it. She should be treated as such. She should be ignored as someone who tacitly approves of mass murder, at the very least, because what she suggests is to simply ignore that it happened at best and blame oneself for it at worst.

All of that in mind, Samira Kernher, I will direct you back to Itzak Barah’s wisdom:

Are there other opinions? Thousands. Most of them are wrong at some level, or they conflict, and yet even those at complete odds with one another fail to produce a single acceptable definition between them. Amazing.
And yet there are those here in this very room who would say that by discounting these definitions, of poet as chronicler, conduit and creator, I have failed; that they are true. And of course they are. In someone’s ears they will be, but in mine they are not.*

Doubt. Question. Most of all doubt the people who would have you doubt yourself because their truth is not yours. Instead of allowing Pilot Mithra’s words to elicit an emotional response and feeding her ammunition against you, at every opportunity ask yourself - ask God, “Is this the right thing to do?” But you don’t need me to tell you this. You already ask yourself these questions.

1 Like
88

The Best way to Prove Samira Kernher’s arguments Wrong, is for people to Live a Righteous Life.

1 Like
89

I am not sure that we as immortals have that sort of time on hand to wait.

90

Excuse me, Ms. Kernher?..
I might not know some basics of the Faith, but could you please explain such a bold statement? Does any scripture give you power to claim this? Do you realize how damaging that offer will be to the Imperial integrity, well being and management? I am afraid it won’t combat the corruption, it will only amplify it, tenfold, hundredfold. Allowing people who has no merit and no profession to participate in the politics, that is the main ruling engine of the society, sounds just… savage!

91

Faith.

If it is, then that is just more proof of Amarr’s sin, and more reason to revile those who lied to the Amarrian people and to demand change.

Obviously, people who are participating in government would be expected to undergo training and preparation for the role.

As someone from the Caldari State, a society without a noble class, the concept of common citizens training into occupations should not be a surprise to you. Indeed, it is the nobles in Amarr who are frequently the ones to lack merit, as they are given their positions by virtue of nothing but their birth, and not because they have merited it by their own actions. Many nobles have not labored a day in their lives, and rely on servants to do the most basic tasks for them. And while they are typically given education in leadership and politics as they grow up, it frequently does not take, as many are spoiled brats who think they can do anything they want, resulting in many meritless, incompetent rulers who abuse their power.

Including the common people – the people who labor, who do work, who earn their places – is including more merited people into government, rather than less.

92

Perhaps “Naupliusness” would be a more dignified word.

93

I guess you are right in this case. Please excuse me, I misunderstood you. Considering your society has commoners and nobles, I didn’t think myself about nobility when I imagined commoners, but rather a common random person from the street. If the common people involves “not nobility” who was trained in politics to participate in the government process, when it will be people who will pass exams and will be selected for their leadership qualities instead of taking opinions of random bystanders for management purposes, then, indeed, I see nothing criminal in that.

But here another question emerges. Nobility are trained to govern since they were child. How many actually commoners in the Empire who are trained to participate in politics? Shouldn’t education system for that purpose be organized first?

That’s actually similar to your idea of

Of course Im not going to convince Amarr that slavery is good or bad, that’s cultural aspect that I don’t understand and will leave it to internal debates. But do you understand that you simply cannot just “end” it overnight? How calls for that make you different from these inhuman savages, who want simply to ram into the Empire and release all the criminals from slavery to run amok, murder, rape and pillage?..

Shouldn’t you organize first prison facilities who will hold captives, prisoners of war, criminals who were entitled to slavery before your reform? How are you going to solve that problem? Currently slaves are suppported by Holders, who earn profit with these hands, and use it partly to support slaves with food, living conditions - and, of course, security to keep them in check. Once slaves will be migrated into prisons, who will be providing all this? Who will be building these prisons? Emperor Family? Have you made any estimation of the financial pressure your idea will cause on the Empire?

I can’t jump into discussion of the Theological side of the problem, but I would like to hear your estimation of economical solution to your ideas. How much funding they will require, who will be funding them, how much time that will take, how much profit will it ensure for the Empire? Or might it cost more Empire that bring profit?.. I would like to hear this!

I am asking this, because I imagine astronomical losses. Your initial idea was to combat corruption, am I right? But will it have sense, if losses for combating corruption will overwhelm losses caused by corruption? Will it have meaning? Maybe there are others, more cheap and more efficient options to fight corruption?

How high actually are losses due to corruption in the Empire? And what’s aproximate percentage of overall corruption each of your ideas are supposed to negate?

In other words, how much improvement are you going to achieve?

94

A great many things are needed, indeed.

Yes. As written in the original document, the expectation is a transition period lasting several years. Overnight is in no way part of my thinking, though I feel an announcement that it will be ending is needed immediately – this establishes, without hemming or hawing, that the system is coming to an end, and that all affected should be taking immediate steps to adjust. Included in such a transitional period should of course be deadlines for percentage of stock to be released, audits to ensure compliance, and, where necessary, financial aid. I expect that the Caldari State, among others, would be willing to provide support in such a transition – indeed, many Caldari economists have been calling on Amarr to transition away from slavery for many years, and have attested that it would benefit Amarr’s economy in the long term.

Likewise, I have called, for now, only an end to generational slavery – that is, people born into slavery because their parents were slaves. The case of actual criminals, people who were enslaved in their own lifetimes for crimes they themselves committed are another matter. There is likewise also consideration to be made for those who sell themselves into slavery in order to escape poverty. These specific cases may entail maintaining a limited form of slavery, without the generational aspects, or indeed, an expansion of Amarr’s prison system (for criminals) and the social safety net (for the abject poor).

I cannot speak for the financial cost or profit that all of this would entail. It is still too early to be making such claims. This document is a mission statement, as it were. The specifics of the process are something that would require the consultation of experts in their fields to devise the best possible plan for acting on it. As I mentioned, however, economists from the State, and elsewhere, have written much on the long term economic gain to be found by converting from a slave-based economy to one based around free workers.

Attempts to make use of better options – relying on the established systems to hold bad actors to account – have been tried, and have not achieved any significant effect, as bad actors control those systems. Indeed, those actors have continued to abuse those systems to accrue even greater power for themselves.

You supported Heth, Kim. If I recall correctly, I believe he fought from a similar position as I am: a populist, fighting for the common person, who instituted many meritocratic reforms with the intent of combating the excesses of corrupt executives.

1 Like
95

I haven’t yet decided where I stand, if anywhere, on your manifesto. However…I get that you are trying to explain things to Diana but Samira, please. Do not draw any lines between yourself and that man. His mad ideas nearly destroyed that which he claimed to want to protect. I assume that is not something you want to repeat.

96

Obviously. I say nothing for the quality of his efforts or whether or not he succeeded – I leave that to Caldari discussions, of which this is not – only as I understand his intent for the sake of example.

97

Indeed, I did. Every loyal State citizen supported Heth. It’s same as those Imperials who supported Empress Jamyl who came into power by not standard means. I always support our acting government, because it’s our duty to serve and protect. But do you support your current Empress now?

Well, Heth indeed support the working class in the State. Though there are several differences. First of all, his reforms kicked in only after he came to power. Second, his reforms were conducted by a whole team of people, led by Janus Bravour, and these reforms were quite efficient, giving the State the boost rather than bankrupting it.

I wonder now, are you planning on becoming the Empress of Amarr Empire now?

Oh, and finally, there is third, probably the most significant difference, that made people actually follow him and why people might not follow you. Yes, Tibus Heth may have acted against the State authorities, but he did never betray the State and Caldari, he never sided with the enemy. How are you going to convince same commoners to give you trust after you sided with those, who came into the Empire with war, to murder, kidnap, torture, rob them?..

98

No. If I wanted any kind of power, this is not the path I would have chosen.

But I will do my duty, no matter what happens.

Tibus Heth was the leader of a worker protest and riot that eventually lead into a firefight with Caldari armed forces. His start was fighting against the lawful authorities in support of the common people, and it triggered further revolts across the Caldari State. Tibus Heth fought against legitimate State authorities in the hope of achieving better conditions for the workers. He was put into power, instead of executed for rebellion, because he found wide support for his ideals. He even broadcast a manifesto of his own, where he admits to participating in a coup and committing crimes against State law, in the name of doing what he felt was right.

I did not “side with those who came into the Empire with war, to murder, kidnap, torture, rob”. I sided with those looking to protect the common people from the cruelty of the people in power, who were murdering them by the millions. I sided with the common people against lords whose response to chemical attacks was to slaughter the victims. I supplied the common people with food, water, fuel, refuge, and yes, weapons with which to fight back against those who had abused them. I flew a relief transport for the victims on Kahah, a transport that was destroyed by CONCORD under Khanid orders. I tried to fight back against mass murderers sacrificing millions of slaves, only to again be destroyed by CONCORD, who protected the monsters. I made one of the most difficult decisions of my life and defended a relief transport in defense of the millions of people on Kahah who were being butchered by Khanid lords, because I knew that doing what was right mattered more than what Amarrian capsuleers and lords might think of me. And I fought for those people who rebelled on Thebeka in the hope of giving them a better future.

And before that, I have provided care for millions of innocent victims of Nauplius. I have defended Amarr on numerous occasions, against the Republic militia, blood raiders, Sansha’s Nation, the drifters, and the triglavians. I have provided humanitarian aid for victims on Caldari Prime, Anath, Rens, Tsurama, and others. I have worked for, administered, helped administer, and provided charity to multiple refugees and hospitals, both in space and planetside. I represented PIE and Amarr at the Pakshi Peace Conference. I called on empresses Jamyl and Catiz to uphold Scriptural laws on proper slave ownership to keep slaves out of the hands of capsuleer murderers, and I brought attention to the sin of House Khanid and Cardinal Sourem Itharen naming a Sani Sabik champion-candidate in the Succession Trials. And I have done my utmost to defend the faith from its detractors.

I have no shame in my record.

My fight is against corrupt lords and flawed systems. What I have done has been to help the common people from the injustices of those whose duty was supposed to be to guide and protect them. If any feel I have done wrong, that I have made mistakes, then so be it. Perhaps I have. But I can only do what my heart and my faith tell me is right.

I’ve nothing more to say on this.

4 Likes
99

This is an example , perhaps , that you can never be too specific ?

I was not conflating Amarr and Ammatar. They are , obviously , different regimes , different cultures , and different peoples.

What I certainly was suggesting is that meritocracy is as likely to lead to vanity as to humility.

Granted , the only contexts I am familiar with generally are the Amarr , the Ammatar , and the Minmatar , and the Ni - Kunni narrowly and specifically . Outside of these , though — The Caldari , The Gallente , and many others ? Of them I know practically nothing.

That having been said , though , my experience is that the human mind has an infinite capacity for self - justification and self - exculpation.

Granted , merit would not excuse or justify itself on the basis of a genealogy , or on the basis of an interpretation of holy writ.

BUT it WILL merely find another way to do the exact same thing.

I was born a slave , of slave parents , and spent my youth in household service to a Holder family. And I have spent time in the Minmatar Republic.

And , I assure you , vanity is no less a commonplace among slaves , injustice no less a commonplace among “free” " equals ".

Dare I say it … this , strictly and narrowly , I cannot disagree with.

But then , believe it or not , this is why a daughter of slaves throws in her lot with the Ammatar and the Amarr .

I see , generally , Less respect for the idea that God is the superior of man among the " free " and the “equal”.

That the lowest slave is equally vulnerable to sin and corruption , I have no doubt , is a convenience and a joy to evil men.

And , so , a very inconvenient and a troubling thought to those who would be charitable , merciful , and just.

But I think that in the long term to ignore it is to serve the ends of evil men , who , in the fullness of time , will undo themselves anyway.

1 Like
100

Indeed. I have never claimed that it wasn’t. I was born a slave too, afterall. That is the world I come from. I lived among those who were good, and among those who were not.

But that is not the argument I make. It is common understanding in Amarr that slaves are capable of these things. There is even the belief that we are capable of nothing but these things. What isn’t taught, is that Holders are no better. As slaves, we are taught that those above us are morally, spiritually, intellectually, even biologically superior, but they aren’t. They are as vulnerable to sin as we are, and yet we bestow extreme power to them, under the belief they will not abuse it.

Amarr needs a system where all people, not just some, are recognized as slaves. Where all people are presumed to be capable of sin and vanity and corruption and injustice, and held to account equally. The laws must apply the same to all, and all systems of government must be devised with the understanding that anyone involved is capable of evil. Indeed, evil will always find another way to do the same thing it has always done. Thus if a person in power acts evil, he must be able to be checked and removed by another, and if that person too is evil, then he too must be checked and removed by another. We must be bound by chains of law and accountability.

The Beast – sin, corruption, vanity, and injustice – lives in the hearts of all mankind. It lives in the slaves, and in the emperors. It lives in the freepeople, and in the Holders. It lives in the Minmatar, and in the True Amarr. It must be caged in all of us.

1 Like