CCP as a company is an alcoholic, and its liver (read community) is riddled with an insidious unseen cirrhosis

[Hatch_Nasty]

@Meridan_Night

Not everyone wants to create a new email address specifically for their EVE character

Fair enough. I just said what I do and would never do.

@Meridan_Night

So, CCP is a minor concern to me, in fact a no-concern.

Pretty much how I feel about Brave leadership, besides the fact that there’s nothing to see in my mails.

@Meridan_Night

unlike CCP, they have no legitimacy to it.

They have a purpose to it. I understand how you, not wishing to be part of a group like that, might see the stated purpose as not legitimate. That’s a choice players make when joining the big corps and alliances, and I understand why some may not want to join such groups. I didn’t for a long time, either.

@Meridan_Night

Nobody in their right mind would give their real-life employer access to go through their private email account to read their emails and send new ones in their name!

Real-life being the operative word. In real life, I wouldn’t let a stranger look at my bank records, either. EVE is a game.

[Meridan_Night]

@Hatch_Nasty

Real-life being the operative word. In real life, I wouldn’t let a stranger look at my bank records, either. EVE is a game.

Yes, real life is vastly more relevant in this analogy than EVE. Which is a game. And I get your point, it’s not that serious of a thing. I would be 100% okay too, if I made a conscious effort to keep my EVE account clean. But I’m not doing that.

There’s one other aspect besides private mails that’s bothering me about this. And for you this is probably not relevant. I am a trader. The items I trade in the game, what I invest in, how/where/when I sell them, and how much profits I make off of them – those are what can be considered trade secrets in the game. Anybody with full access to my wallet would have a pretty good blueprint on what to start investing in. I don’t have a separate account for trading, separate account for manufacturing, and a yet separate account for everything else. Meridan is my main that does it all. And I prefer it like that. I don’t want to start juggling multiple accounts, although I could.

I have made investments for other players. And the details of those investments are partially in game mails as well. There is a bunch of sensitive information on my EVE account which shouldn’t be shared with anybody. Least of all with people I don’t know.

If I ever went back to null, I would probably make a new account for it. My maxed out dread/titan pilot is available for those who don’t ask me to compromise my own privacy. And there are those who don’t ask that. Right now it’s not relevant anyway, as I’m happy to do what I do.

[Orion_Supernova]

I feel the thread has been pretty hijacked at this point and is no longer on topic.

TLDR:

• Alts offer insular people the opportunity to avoid those tiny little interactions that are the very foundation of what makes a community work.

• The lack of alts can act as a barrier to progression in some groups.

• Having alts has become an expectation, instead of an option.

• Alts diminish and devalue the individual.

• Alts scare newbies away from the game, both through cost, and size/impenetrableness of existing operations.

• Many alts are specifically designed to allow people to avoid content, reducing the variety and scope of the larger eve story; the one we all write with every log in. (or log out.)

• Alts break game mechanics.

[Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras]

In a world where people want to play a game, without having to wait on someone or sit for hours doing nothing while someone else actually plays, alts allow that person to still play.

Alts are not the problem in EVE

[John_Rochard]

@Orion_Supernova

I feel the thread has been pretty hijacked

I wonder what gave you that idea?

@Orion_Supernova

Alts break game mechanics.

Also you never replied to my honest response.

Fly safe o7

[Syzygium]

@Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras

Alts are not the problem in EVE

Mass multiboxed alts are. Nobody is against a scout or hauler that works in the background.

[Hatch_Nasty]

@Orion_Supernova

I feel the thread has been pretty hijacked at this point and is no longer on topic.

No offense, but that’s probably because the thread you created is not very engaging. This is not to say the topic itself is not interesting or worthy of discussion, but your presentation of it does not prompt engagement. NGL, I did not read your manifesto. If your OP had been a succinct outline of your points (as you have now summarized) and the title was clear and to the point (e.g., “Alts are bad for the game”) you would have likely gotten much more on-topic engagement from the jump.

Having said that, I will engage with your summarized points: You are wrong.

Alts (in moderation) are not the problem. Systems that reward the proliferation of alts are the problem. There should be diminishing returns, such that beyond a handful of utility alts, there isn’t a reason for players to have an army of alts. Generally speaking, this comes down to a multiboxing problem, where rewards scale without diminishing returns.

[Meridan_Night]

@Hatch_Nasty

but your presentation of it does not prompt engagement. NGL, I did not read your manifesto. If your OP had been a succinct outline of your points (as you have now summarized) and the title was clear and to the point (e.g., “Alts are bad for the game”) you would have likely gotten much more on-topic engagement from the jump.

I thought the title itself was arcane and possibly off topic. Not sure if that was spit out by AI but it failed to convey anything about the topic itself. I also didn’t read the original post.

@Orion_Supernova

Alts diminish and devalue the individual.

Not when it’s done right. For example – I created a new character last December to look like the man I’m in love with. I succeded with capturing his likeness surprisingly well, and so now I have a character with deeper meaning and significance to me.

I realize that’s rarely the reason most players create alts for, and not the kind of thing you’re complaining about. But I wanted to present one out-of-the-box way to play this game.

[Sonder_Majus]

So I wrote this some time ago, but didin’t post it.

My first “EVE” encounter was when I explored in Wormholes, flying Astero… Once a fleet of pilots, of about 8 ships landed on an exit wh I wanted to take. I decided to chat in wh local, because why not? In the end they suggested I joined their corp, then we had a honour brawl. At that time in my creer, it really felt something like this:

EVE Online: The Butterfly Effect

Now, some fleets, gatecamps, even roams feel … lame. You jump into a gatecamp and think: “hey, a bunch of players! Belonging to a corp - a community.” Nope. Just one dude with a bunch of beep boop ships… No players there, no corp to “aye” on anything. There is little chance for my ship to randomly land on another ship and have a random scrappy fight - most pilots pre-scout everything… Lame.

Back in the day I was sold a fantasy of a capsuleer, not a swarm of beep boop capsules. Even now, as I still am on Aliastra’s registry, I trained into a Freighter and thought: “if I was to train into a Jump Freighter … is there some reputable corp, which sells beacon services to solo capsuleers?” I haven’t heard anything about such corp. And I bet, if I asked around, I’d probably be told: “just make an alt, bro!”

So yeah. I’m not saying that multiboxing is evil. It is fine, maybe even necessary to sustain the game, but it is very lame.

[Remi_Lacroix]

@Orion_Supernova

Alts offer insular people the opportunity to avoid those tiny little interactions that are the very foundation of what makes a community work.

Why does it matter or bother you that some people don’t want to interact with you?

@Orion_Supernova

The lack of alts can act as a barrier to progression in some groups.

That’s a problem for those groups and not the entire video game or community.

@Orion_Supernova

Having alts has become an expectation, instead of an option.

meeting expectations is still an option.

@Orion_Supernova

Alts diminish and devalue the individual.

No they do not. Alts empower individuals.

@Orion_Supernova

Alts scare newbies away from the game, both through cost, and size/impenetrableness of existing operations.

Have you asked all new players and gotten responses to indicate this?

@Orion_Supernova

Many alts are specifically designed to allow people to avoid content, reducing the variety and scope of the larger eve story; the one we all write with every log in. (or log out.)

So? If a person does not want to participate in some content why is that a problem for anyone except that player?

@Orion_Supernova

Alts break game mechanics.

No they do not. Players break game mechanics whether they are solo or have 5,000 alts.

This thread and your comments make it appear that you are upset that some players do not want to rely on unreliable other players. That some players are tired of being scammed, used and abused and then thrown away like trash. That some players simply do not want to play whatever content you demand everyone participate in.

You do not get to control other players or their personalities.

[Hatch_Nasty]

@Sonder_Majus

“if I was to train into a Jump Freighter … is there some reputable corp, which sells beacon services to solo capsuleers?” I haven’t heard anything about such corp. And I bet, if I asked around, I’d probably be told: “just make an alt, bro!”

If you want to fly jump-capable ships, the advice to make a cyno alt is actually good. It’s never wise to jump a freighter in the blind, especially to a third-party beacon, no matter how reputable the corp or person providing it. You either want a trusted corpmate on the other end, telling you the coast is clear, or (more reliably), you want your own eyes in the destination system.

Cyno alts exist due to issues of trust and availability. Even if you want to use a trusted corpmate, sometimes no one is available to fly 27 jumps, scout the destination, and light a cyno for you. That’s a lot to ask.

This kind of thing falls squarely in the category of “utility alt.”

[Syzygium]

@Hatch_Nasty

There should be diminishing returns, such that beyond a handful of utility alts, there isn’t a reason for players to have an army of alts.

exactly that! thank you!

[Orion_Supernova]

There is so much wrong with this post.

Why does it matter or bother you that some people don’t want to interact with you?
You are confused thinking the post is about me, and not the wider game and the developers.

That’s a problem for those groups and not the entire video game or community.

You are not considering that these groups make up a large large percentage of the playerbase, and as such effectively do constitute the game as a whole.

Having alts has become an expectation, instead of an option.
This doesn’t in any way deal with the repercussions of forcing people to subscribe multiple accounts.
It’s a statement for the sake of having something to say, even if that something has no value to the conversation.

No they do not. Alts empower individuals.
Alts empower individuals that have alts.
Alts diminish and devalue the individuals who do not have alts.
The value no longer is attributed solely to person in the seat behind the screen, the one that goes to fanfest.
Instead it is attributed to how many accounts they are willing to maintain.
The alts are the value, no longer the person.

Have you asked all new players and gotten responses to indicate this?
Are you telling me that there is no problem attracting and keeping new players, not new alt accounts people spin up for various reason, new actual real people that bring variety to the game?

So? If a person does not want to participate in some content why is that a problem for anyone except that player?

Are you saying you’d prefer eve to be a single player game?
No content ever?
Without interaction, there can be no community, and bringing this post back around to the original topic, community is the thing that is dissolving in eve and the reason i started this topic.

No they do not. Players break game mechanics whether they are solo or have 5,000 alts.

This thread and your comments make it appear that you are upset that some players do not want to rely on unreliable other players. That some players are tired of being scammed, used and abused and then thrown away like trash. That some players simply do not want to play whatever content you demand everyone participate in.

You do not get to control other players or their personalities.

You are once again trying to turn the topic away from the issue of community, and how important it is for a virtual simulated universe, even to the point of CCP holding it up as the move important part of this game.

To directly respond to your above point, i am upset that CCP seem fine in allowing this cirrhosis to persist and get worse.

In life there are scammers, there are fine weather friends, there are genuine people wanting to help, these things are not unique to eve, and are a natural part of human interaction and any community.

[Orion_Supernova]

How do you learn that a corpmate is trustworthy unless they have earned that…
To earn trust you must work with someone.
If you do it all yourself, you stop working with other people, and you stop learning to trust other people.

Someone who doesn’t trust other people, is less and less likely to interact with other people, eventually turning their eve game into a single player game.

[Orion_Supernova]

I did not read your manifesto

You don’t really have a lot of worthwhile things to add here then, do you.

I suggest you either put in some effort to read someone else’s work and possibly expand your mind and ideas.
Or you can go back to being an expert in all articles you read the title of, on facebook.

BTW: i did actually read the rest of your post anyway, even if the beginning wasn’t very interesting or engaging.
I agree that diminishing returns would go a long way to reducing the multiboxing that i’m seeing as the issues, however i struggle to see a way to implement that, or even keep track of who has what alts.

[Orion_Supernova]

The title was designed to be clickbait.
And judging by the fact you’re here, you did click it.

[Sonder_Majus]

Ehh, I’ll have to disagree with this, simply on the basis of good being subjective. To a certain player RMT to multibox in PvP with input broadcasting is a good idea. It just depends on personal preference.

Even if I was to entertain the idea of a cyno alt and disregard my preference for immersion and aversion to metagaming, it still wouldn’t make sense to me.

I might need to make two cyno jumps every three months, let’s say. Currently, the cost to run an omega account makes this irrational, since the cost would exceed the rate charged by PushX. Now, If people couldn’t swipe their credit card for a cyno alt and had to cooperate… That could quickly flip around, where cyno jumping an Anshar, few times a month, could become very viable or even preffered. PushX then would be simply selling their time hauling while taking higher risk, which would increase the rates, which could make “cyno service” a thing.

So the trust issue is valid, but it is also players just scaling out the whole logistics chain, by removing the need to and risk of interacting with others. That devalues the reward of cooperating with others, by competition. One reinforces the other.

[Meridan_Night]

@Orion_Supernova

And judging by the fact you’re here, you did click it.

Don’t flatter yourself. I look at all the threads under Communications.

[Remi_Lacroix]

@Orion_Supernova

forcing people to subscribe multiple accounts.

Who is forcing people to subscribe multiple accounts?

@Orion_Supernova

It’s a statement for the sake of having something to say, even if that something has no value to the conversation.

you’re making vague statements with nothing behind them. Who is forcing people to subscribe multiple accounts?

@Orion_Supernova

Alts diminish and devalue the individuals who do not have alts.

Not having alts is a choice. Every choice has related consequences. Alts help make more isk or gather more resources, but also cost more money and time. It’s easy to say, for example, that a miner with a fleet is making a lot of isk if you discount the cost of that alt army. When you take into account that cost, the profits are not nearly as high as imagined.

@Orion_Supernova

The alts are the value, no longer the person.

This is fundamentally wrong. The person behind the alts is the value. They are the ones putting in the effort and money. They are the ones doing the activities. What you descibe sounds more like bots. Bots might operate without a person, but non-rule breaking alts do not.

@Orion_Supernova

Are you telling me that there is no problem attracting and keeping new players

There are many problems that stop people from joining eve and/or staying. Out of game negative propaganda being the first and foremost. The UI is another one. The long time to train skills without spending more money is another.

People saying you can only have fun if you have an army of alts are lying. That is negative propaganda and nothing more.

@Orion_Supernova

Are you saying you’d prefer eve to be a single player game?
No content ever?

What a wild conclusion.

Every single player in this game is free to choose what content they want to spend their own time on. I don’t think anyone is participating in every bit of content there is in this game. Choosing not to participate in whatever your preferred content is in no way saying that this should be a single player game with absolutely no content.

@Orion_Supernova

You are once again trying to turn the topic away from the issue of community, and how important it is for a virtual simulated universe, even to the point of CCP holding it up as the move important part of this game.

You can apply colors to my text all you want and try to say that a response you don’t like is off-topic but that does not make it so.

Your title is off-topic to the content of your post. Your premise rests on some unseen boogie man and your own desire for more of whatever content you want to force other players to participate in. You do not get to dictate how other people play.

@Orion_Supernova

i am upset that CCP seem fine in allowing

That is your choice. Nobody is forcing anyone to subscribe to multiple accounts. If anyone were, they would be violating a lot of different rules and probably laws. Forcing people to spend money they do not want to is illegal in just about every country I have ever visited or simply know about.

@Orion_Supernova

In life there are scammers, there are fine weather friends, there are genuine people wanting to help, these things are not unique to eve, and are a natural part of human interaction and any community.

That has nothing to do with the content of your message.

[Remi_Lacroix]

@Orion_Supernova

How do you learn that a corpmate is trustworthy unless they have earned that…
To earn trust you must work with someone.

i.e. you’re not allowed to learn to distrust people in a video game that enables and to an extent celebrates being untrustworthy.