Clarification of State Repatriation

So you can’t provide examples of me not providing examples? Doesn’t sound like an observation that should be taken seriously.

There’s a difference between wanting to, and being able to. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

Logic dictates that the best path forward would be to contact representatives of your Mega, and ask them if repatriation is desirable in your case. They would then determine whether the answer is “yes” or “no” based on the information available to them courtesy of the security apparatus. Laymen on forums have neither the authority, nor access to the information required, to make a valid decision on the matter.

At the core of it, we have no issue with survival of the fittest.

I disagree.

Introspection is an important thing, and it is good to see that it is occasionally practiced.

To my knowledge this has never occurred.

Depends on whether they are still close to baseline when they are recovered.

You miss the point entirely.

Whether you want to call it the collective, or the culture, or the community, it’s continued survival and the preservation of the way without outside influence is the most important thing.

They either disregarded the evac order, or they were unable to heed it. They then did not repatriate once the war for independence ended with the formation of CONCORD despite having had over twelve decades to do so. During that entire timeframe, they have lived under Federal rule. One can not rule out that cross-cultural contamination may have taken place there. During that entire timeframe, they contributed nothing to the collective.

You then claim that they are equals to the majority who did heed the call, fought for independence for over a century, and then continued our way of life without outside influence, before passing the torch on to us.

If that is so, let them come forward and prove themselves worthy of citizenship based on their individual merit. If they will not or can not, that excludes them.

What Aria has said is not incorrect, it merely fails to emphasise the importance of individual merit as defined by one’s contribution to the whole. There are countless Intaki in Mordu’s Legion who have a greater claim to being a part of us than those of Caldari descent who have chosen to contribute nothing.

I need not filter what is not improper. Placing the whole over the self and contributing to it is an integral part of our way of life. Either an individual does so, or they do not. If they choose not to contribute to the whole, and live apart from it, we will consider them to not be a part of it. If they want to become a part of it, good for them, as long as they have not actively worked against the whole. That is not an emotional statement, but a simple, cold reiteration. This applied before First Contact with outsiders, still applies today, and will not change because you consider it to be an unreasonable standard.

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Well, then you’re just completely screwed, aren’t you? Because the entire culture of the Caldari State is a direct result of ‘outside influence’. The only way to not be influenced at all is to have no contact at all. If there’s contact, then there’s exchange of ideas. And even if those ideas are rejected, that’s still influence. Maybe the idea would have been accepted when it was developed internally in only a few more years, but now… well, it’s been labelled an outside idea, and rejected, so rejected it remains.

As long as you’re dealing with the outside, you are influenced by it, even if that influence is only to retreat into conservativism and insularity, and reject the natural internal development that would have otherwise happened, because you see it as a reflection of the outsiders.

No, I claim that they, who while they have been under Federal rule, have maintained their pre-existing Caldari culture, are just as valid a form of Caldari culture, and have no need to beg for the acceptance of the State Caldari that abandoned that way of life in the face of outside pressure.

Like it or not, your ancestors are the ones who didn’t preserve the same way of life, but changed under the pressure of outside influence. It was an entirely reasonable thing to do, but you can’t make the claim that uprooting your population and restructuring everything from planetary collectivism into interstellar zaibatsu corporatism wasn’t a fundamental change undertaken in response to Federal actions. Again: even rejection is influence.

Except that again, you conflate ‘being Caldari’ with being ‘part of us’, demonstrating once again exactly the position that undermined Aria’s claim.

And yet, like literally every other human being who has ever existed, you do.

Edit, oh, and…

Eskola-Fae’s group embraced the Triglavians, invaders who took Caldari territory. They did so under his leadership. So… seems it has occurred, no?

BTW…

I tend to engage in it on an almost obsessive level, in fact. Just because I choose to indulge some of my vices and failings doesn’t mean I’m not acutely aware of them. Gotta pick your battles, you know. :wink:

The difference that if you win the century-long war of independence you get to determine how your culture develops, rather than the enemy. Expecting the same to apply to kinsmen in occupied territory is foolish. So no, what you said does not hold up as an argument.

And your claim is wrong. They had the choice between leaving the planet and continuing the fight for the continuation of the way. They chose to stay under foreign occupation. They do not get to determine where our way leads, and their abandonment of the whole means we don’t care where their’s leads.

The only course of action that could have resulted in the end of our way, was to succumb to the U-Nat blockade. We decided to fight. People gave their lives to create the opportunity for the homeworld to be evacuated. They were succesful enough to buy us ample time. People had a choice between staying or leaving. The overwhelming majority chose to leave because they understood that not fighting would entail Federal rule, with no indication that the U-Nats would lose power. Between that moment in time, and the present day, we have had to restructure the way we do things plenty of times. That does not mean that the core values of our culture have changed. Those remain as intact here as they were before the war, as they were before First Contact. Can you say the same?

That’s not conflation, that’s how it is. Being Caldari entails understanding and accepting that the individual has to do their part for the group, because the group will live on whilst the individual fades away. When confronted with literal U-Nats, foreign troops on our world, orbital bombardments and public statements about permanent solutions to the Caldari problem, they -chose- not to resist the enemy when given a chance to leave and fight on. They made that choice -without- any foreknowledge that the U-Nats would be deposed and replaced. Anyone who chooses the easy path of subjugation to people who want to destroy what we are, over war, no matter how long and costly, is -not- Caldari because they are -not- willing to make the same sacrifices as the rest of us. She has not said anything that contradicts this core pillar.

I know of no records of his group using force against State holdings, so no.

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I never said you didn’t get to decide how your culture develops. I said it wasn’t free of outside influence. Do try to actually stick to what’s said, instead of making things up wholesale, hmm?

But wait, what happened to the possibility of…

As for…

No-one has said they do, only that their way remains as Caldari as it was before the diaspora. Once again, it would be better to try arguing against the points actually made, instead of the ones you’d like to be refuting.

But of course, once again, not what was said. You’re continually making things up to argue against. What I said was that you didn’t preserve the same way of life. You changed your way of life, as a result of outside influence.

I can, without any hesitation, tell you that my way of life and the way of life of my people is not the same as it was just before beginning of the Gallente-Caldari War in 23155AD. After all, at the time, my people were enslaved by the Amarr.

Now we are not. Our ways changed, by our own choice, in ways influenced by our contact with outsiders. As is inevitable for any who deal with outsiders. For example, the Caldari State is no longer cooperating closely with the Empire in the Amarr/Minmatar warzone, as a result of outside influences.

It is absolutely conflation. It might as well be called the ‘no true Caldari fallacy’. In your previous response, you allowed that some would have been unable to escape. Now, of course, that’s become inconvenient, so you’ve jettisoned it.

And yet, once again, you argue against something that is not the thing at issue.

I pointed out that his group embraced the Triglavians after the Triglavians had attacked the State.

Then you claimed such a thing had never happened. But obviously, it has. So now you attempt to claim the point at issue is whether or not his group has used force against State holdings, when even the text you quote makes clear that that is not the question that was asked. it’s as if I asked what the sum of 2+2 is, so you argued against Caldari ships being painted chartreuse.

You could at least try to conduct your argument in good faith. I thought honesty and honorable behavior were virtues, in the State.

No one is free of outside influence, nor is it wrong to learn from the enemy. The difference being, as I have stated before, that if you maintain your independence, you get to decide what is beneficial to adopt, and what is antithetical to your core values. You are laying the emphasis on the wrong part of the previous statements.

I disagree. Evidently they were fine with allowing the U-Nats to determine their fate when they did not evacuate. They did not fight for the survival of our culture. The very least they could do before claiming association is obtaining citizenship, completing their conscription period and paying their taxes like everyone else.

And? What difference does it make whether we enforce our right to self-determination with a railgun instead of a bow? What matters is that we did not change our way of life in a manner that would bring shame upon our ancestors and dishonour upon us. Our core values are what matter. Everything else is but a tool which facilitates that.

Take the Megacorporations for example. If the Federation had not forced it’s rules on the national governments on Caldari Prime, we would not have had to transfer custody of our people and assets from said governments to the megas in order to utilize the Federation’s own laws on free trade as a loophole to continue living our lives without their regulations. When they pushed too far and the secession war began, the position of the Megas as the governing bodies simply transitioned from being a de-facto one to being a de-jure one. Were those changes? Sure, but the end result is still self-determination instead of decisions being made by a government that is merely a puppet attached to Federal strings. With that in mind, why would we consider changes to be bad if they entail preserving our way of life?

I am aware of the history. I refrain from bringing it up because I do not want to be perceived as using that as a cheap low-blow in a low-stakes discussion that will affect no significant change.

What I am attempting to convey to you is that in spite of external factors and targeted attempts, the core values of all Caldari communities today remain the same as they were before First Contact with the Gallente. I do not dispute that.

The principal difference that generates friction is that State Caldari have consistently been the only ones willing and able to protect said values from the moment the Senate demanded our worlds. The “diaspora” as you call it remains Caldari because no Federal government since the U-Nats wants to risk being compared to the U-Nats by meddling in the affairs of the remaining Caldari on Caldari Prime. In contrast, we remain Caldari because we spent a good century grinding down what was essentially the only superpower in the Cluster before contact with the Empire was established. The economy and military of the State make it the only able guaranteur of the continuation of our culture, as well as the only internationally recognized one. So to then hear people from the outside claim that the Remainers who are only able to practice their culture because their occupiers allow it are on the same level as us when none of their sons and daughters fulfil three years of service to protect that right to self-determination, is extremely grating.

I did not jettison it. You are choosing to misconstrue it to win a galnet argument. They had the opportunity to evacuate between the moment Yakiya Tovil-Toba forced the withdrawal of the Federal navy, and the moment when State authorities completed the evacuation of all Caldari who were willing to leave. The moment we withdrew from the system, and the Federal military apparatus occupied the world, that window closed until the war ended and CONCORD was formed. Then too, they did join back up with us. It was a conscious decision rather than them being victims of circumstance.

Many fools embraced the Triglavians, as you and I both know from our presence on the grid. Not all of those fools came to blows with the SAF or the CSF, though.

I have done so, but you seem too intent on interpreting things otherwise.

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So, first, a few points:

Except if you knew the history, then you did bring it up in exactly that kind of tactic when you said ‘Can you say the same?’ about First Contact. You went there, and now you say you knew what that question meant.

. . .

di·as·po·ra

/dīˈasp(ə)rə/

noun

  1. the dispersion or spread of a people from their original homeland.
    • people who have spread or been dispersed from their homeland.

You are the Caldari Diaspora.

Now then…

Am I? Let’s look at the original statement:

So, there’s the bit about ‘without outside influence’ being ‘the most important thing’. before we go on to the rest of the quote, let’s take a moment there. Now you’re claiming that by putting emphasis on what you called ‘the most important thing’, I’m putting the emphasis in the wrong place. But you told me to put it there, because that is ‘the most important thing’.

And then there’s three more paragraphs that do nothing to diminish that, even emphasizing ‘cross-cultural contamination’, with nothing about being forced to do so, or loss of agency. Only that they’re not the equals of you who ‘continued our way of life without outside influence’.

But now, you’re the one changing your tune. First you changed it to ‘well we won, so we get to decide, not them’, and now it’s ‘no one is free of outside influence, nor is it wrong to learn from the enemy’.

And you claim you’re not using bad-faith tactics here?

No, they ensured the survival of theirs. Of what they knew as ‘Caldari culture’, no matter how you would later redefine it. Nor are they claiming association. That’s you, again conflating ‘being Caldari’ as ‘being us’.

And instead, they decided to preserve their way of life, and not give up their world. They likely had exactly the same justifications for that that I’ve heard from State Caldari about the invasion to retake Home, the same justifications so many State Caldari use for continuing the fighting in the systems the State volunteered for Gallente invasion in the warzone. That they wouldn’t give up their peoples’ home to the invaders, regardless of the cost to themselves.

But that was not the question asked. This is what I mean by not arguing in good faith. The question was whether or not embracing the invaders who attacked the State made them traitors.

Because they did that. And your response was that it’s never happened. That what they actually did, didn’t happen.

Ironically, it’s the same thing you’re accusing the Raata Caldari of doing that makes them ‘no longer Caldari’. But it’s never happened, apparently.

But I will say this, taking your misunderstanding of ‘diaspora’ into account:

Yes, they do.

There were many different cultures and races spread across the continents of Caldari Prime prior to first contact with the Gallente, however the majority of the population consisting of the Civire and Deteis was settled on the Tikiona continent and unified under the Raata Empire which had collapsed.

Considering this I would say there is a definite Caldari identity, at least one that is very Tikiona/Raata focused and in its modern incarnation within the State is used as a means of social engineering in order to promote cohesion and cultural unity under a singular identity.

However, there was also very much other cultures and nations which originate on the Caldari homeworld separate from the Tikiona/Raata culture which also formed their own colonies during the expansion outwards from Luminaire and which are now member-states in the Federation.

I’m not sure those descendants of the non-Tikiona Caldari in the Federation would identify themselves as Caldari in preference for their own particular indigent identities. The term “Caldari” would probably be seen as a type of Tikiona or Raata chauvinism in their eyes.

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We were not dispersed. We calculated the only path to cultural survival, pushed back the enemy, evacuated everyone who was not nuts, and set about fighting the war. The word you have chosen for this does not apply.

No, I am not going to waste time looking at the original statement, because picking things out of context until no one can follow it is your sole joy in life.

There is no distinction between “being Caldari” and “being us”. The cultural differences, if there are any, are evidently so minute that they were not noticable during any of my previous visits. The sole difference is that they don’t do their part for the whole, and in contrast to the ways of the occupiers, citizenship is a privilege earned and retained through merit, not something you can expect to have unconditionally.

As history points out, they did not care enough about the way of our ancestors to fight for it’s preservation. Otherwise they would not have submitted to occupation by the U-Nats. Therefore what you say is false.

In the strictest sense of it, they would not be viewed as traitors unless they inflicted damage upon the whole, so technically, no, but they are encouraged to reach out to the relevant authorities within the Mega they hail from to ascertain that for certain.

No, my response was that they did not inflict damage upon the State to the best of my knowledge. That statement remains true, and informs my advice to them, irrespective of your attempts to twist the words.

The Raata Empire existed and fractured long before first contact with off-worlders. The ghosts of those who lived then are already shamed by having had to watch a miniscule fraction of their descendants lay down their weapons before the enemy whilst the rest of us fought on. Their fire does not burn within the dishonoured. Only within those who will die before allowing their legacy to be tarnished.

If a forgotten colony of people with such a background exists, and they want to make something new for themselves, more power to them. However, the moment people start calling themselves Caldari, Civire or Deteis, they are expected to be able to back those claims up.

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Once again:

Are you claiming you haven’t spread out? That the entire Caldari State remains 1 main world and a few colonies? Or is this more arguing in bad faith?

Nevermind, I know the answer. And so do you.

Yes, showing the actual context of your statement is ‘picking things out of context’. More bad faith argument.

And yet you argued that you’re not conflating them. More dishonesty. More argument in bad faith.

So which is it? Did they preserve the way of your ancestors so well that “[t]he cultural differences, if there are any, are evidently so minute that they were not noticable during any of my previous visits” or did the occupation obliterate those ways?

Can you even keep your argument consistent within the same post?

Thank you for finally answering the question that was actually asked, instead of making things up out of thin air.

Was it?

Looks like it wasn’t.

I’d say let me know when you decide you want to stop fabricating falsehoods and discuss things honestly, but I’m sure that’d just get me more accusations of ‘playing a game’, So, g’bye.

So Arrendis, is it fair to say that we can boil your argument down to:

State Caldari: “We do not recognize those outside of the State as being Caldari.”
Arrendis: “Nuh uh! They’re Caldari because they say they are.”

Is that about right? Oh, and because I know you’ll be pedantic about it, I’m not talking about those outside of the State’s borders. I’m talking about actually having State citizenship and such.

If intentionally using biased framing to cast one side of the discussion as inherently foolish can be considered ‘fair to say’, then almost.

It’s more;

‘Both modern cultures developed from the same root Caldari culture, nurtured by people of Caldari ancestry who held to the same Caldari virtues. Neither has the right to tell the other they’re ‘not Caldari’.’

I’m talking only about the Caldari-descended people who never left Caldari Prime1. If you’re talking about anyone else, then no, it’s not fair to characterize my statements as being about the people you’re talking about at all.

Also: when there’s as much potential for misunderstanding about things like “Which population of ‘not X’ someone is talking about?” as there is here, it’s hardly pedantry to attempt to be clear as to just who it is you’re actually talking about. So, you know, thank you, for making sure to clearly indicate just who it is you’re referring to. Which, as I understand your statement, is those of Caldari descent who do not currently hold Megacorporate citizenship, yes?


1. In the cultural part of the discussion that is. Obviously, in discussing what Esolka-Fae’s people did, I’m specifically talking about them, and in the root section of the conversation regarding whether or not views like Miran’s undercut Aria’s claim that the people on Caldari Prime would be thought of positively, I’m talking about Caldari pilots on this board.

Wonderful, then we’re on the same page.

So, like you said. Caldari culture and Caldari virtues. And what are those virtues and culture? Well, that’s a big topic, so we’ll concentrate on what matters here. Namely, unity. Unity in purpose, unity in culture, and unity against outsiders.

Are Caldari who’ve aligned with the Federation and turned their back on the majority of their people still united by values and culture to those people? The answer is no. Civire and Deteis who’ve aligned against the majority of their people’s culture, are not part of that culture. They are not Caldari. By actively supporting a nation that has waged war against, and continues to wage war against, that culture, they exempt themselves from that culture. They can have very similar values, but without one of the core pillars, then they can not be said to be the same.

Remember now, I’m not talking about people who simply live on Caldari Prime, under the Federation. They are a step removed, but that water gets murky. I’m talking about Adams and others like him.

Addendum: looks like this isn’t the same thread as the conversation we were having before. Oh well, consider this a continuation of my other argument.

Right, but the discussion you’ve replied to… isn’t. It was talking specifically about what Aria called the ‘Raata Caldari’, ie: the ethnic Caldari that never left Caldari Prime. The stuff that, as you say, ‘gets murky’.

Adams, as I said… lemme find it…

But also, and this is important…

That’s the tricky bit, and it’s important, because identity’s 100% entirely subjective, especially when it’s our own identity. And no matter how much someone can yell and rage about ‘you’re not X!’… they’ll keep identifying as X unless you convince them that they’re not. :person_shrugging:

Not that Arrendis is listening or anything (yay!) but I don’t think the Raata are confined to Caldari Prime and I … kind of don’t think all or probably even most of the Caldari on Caldari Prime are Raata?

If I understand correctly the Raata are kind of a self-consciously isolated, traditionalist culture. I’m not sure Caldari Prime really has room for that kind of thing anymore. I did visit it once; it seemed …

… loud.

Maybe there’s more opportunity for such things than I’m giving it credit for though.

Anyway-- Raata/Caldari Prime ethnic Caldari would be overlapping issues but not quite the same maybe.

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Sure he can call himself that, but when a nation of trillions would vehemently disagree… doesn’t give him much legitimacy.

Gives him all the legitimacy he needs: legitimacy in his own eyes.

Remember: Trillions may disagree as vehemently as they like. You and all the rest here can post angrily as much as you want. But he still retains a very… Caldari… trait: He doesn’t care what his enemy thinks of him.

Well, I think that’s pretty common trait among all sides. The Feds don’t care what State citizens think of them, the Amarr don’t care what the Republic thinks of them, ect. You can think you’re the queen of the cluster, doesn’t make it so unless you e got the guns to back it up.

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