[Closing] A great hook to rise player base

Guys helped me understand that there should be better way to do it. Closing the thread soon o/

Warning: all I suggest is to conduct an experiment and analyze the results. Not to commit irreversible changes to the game. This thread is here to discuss possible pitfalls.

Schedule somewhat regular Proving Grounds for T1 frigates with restriction of T1 modules.
(at least once/twice a month)

T1 frigates/T1 modules event may be a demo version of PvP for not only newbros but also anyone who wants to get into PvP.
It can give a basic feeling of a fight with other players and an opportunity to train basic ship control skills like damage application and mitigation, repping and overheating.
Main thing is that to make it affordable for newbros but definitely not free.

Add example fittings to Community fittings to make fitting learning curve less steep. Make these fittings mediocre to encourage to learn fitting game.

Make personal non-profit rewards like personal unique SKINs which you can not sell hence can not buy too, only get through the Proving process.

Promote this on Pulse regularly.

Analyze results (eg retention and sandbox killboard activity of participants).
Remove it or improve it if it works out well.

Thoughts behind this:

  • T1 frigates family is diverse but seems to be completely out of PvP meta at the moment.

  • I started to really enjoy PvP only after I got a grip on basic PvP mechanics regarding ship/module management, which took a lot of time and several drops and come backs to EVE spanned over several years lol.

  • It might seem to lower an interest of big outside sandbox world, but it will most probably have an opposite effect - you got into basic mechanics and ships - you want more.


  • The most important skill in EVE is to find PvP in open world.

    • Yes! I double this. The gist of my proposal is to incentivize people to learn this BY first letting them get a basic feeling of own ship. This includes but is not limited to:
      • Remember to turn on your rep in time and NOT overrep
      • Overheat your modules without them being burnt out
      • Manage your fight distance to apply or mitigate incoming damage
        I strongly believe that nothing but ship fighting with other players incentivize one to learn these basics.
  • Why not just grab a Rifter and go to Heydieles? Isn’t it true PvP experience?

    • Given experience won’t be less true if a person have visited couple of T1 Frigate Proving events and now got a basic habit of managing damage dealing, tackle and self-repair simultaneously while being under fire and considering it kinda normal.
  • Why not get alongside experienced players and go fly with and learn from them?

    1. Because there can be language barrier, lack of soft skills etc. and this is pretty common thing.
    2. There should be a reason to seek for someone, unless you actually came to EVE to make friends. Basic interest in PvP and a will to proceed in open world can be such reason.
      • On the other hand there is a reason to seek for help because you just can’t get basic PvP experience without a group. And I think it looks like a stick rather than like a carrot.
  • Session based gameplay will kill EVE

    • There should be separation between instanced PvP and PvE.
    • Instanced PvE is now available at any time and there are a lot of triple-hawk bots flying the Abyss, totally disconnected from outside world (T6 cruisers can be ganked on way out, frigs just don’t worth it). It sucks.
    • Regarding PvP - I think it will not harm the game if these events will not be conducted often. It should be tested.
  • Vets will obliterate all of the newbros

    • It is to be found out. Complete absence of experienced players at these events is bad too! You get better when you play against strong opponent (but not necessarily vs blob lmao). Anyways there may be some regulations to adjust it.
  • Risk averse players will lock up within these events and branch out of sandbox

    • Not really if these events will not be conducted very often. And if they are to be conducted somewhat regularly, risk averse people receive an opportunity to become much less risk averse.
    • So in general it can have a positive impact on sandbox PvP - some part of regular participants will go seek adventures in the wide open and they will be more ready for failing and learning than people without any experience.


personally i’d like to see more of the assault frigate stuff, due to logistical complications in game i was unable to attend the assault frigate event which just happened despite skill training for it for the last few months, i had pre-bought a bunch of assault frigates and fit them to enter the event with. as i’m very keen for the abysall glory skin for the wolf & jaguar.

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So true! I have missed that one too while I had also prebought fittings :slight_smile:

We tried to join the last evening before the end of the event and there was already literally nobody else in queue although we have waited for an hour :expressionless:

Instanced anything is anti-EVE, against the founding principles of the game.

Why not organize a frigate 1v1 fight club yourself? You don’t need some kind of ridiculous “proving ground” or whatever. Players have organized such projects in the past and can do so again. All it really takes is one motivated person to drum up interest and to keep it going.

I love to participate in instanced proving battles from time to time and it actually warms up my interest in sandbox PvP.
It is also an opportunity to practice in fitting game within tight time limit, trying to align with per-event based bonuses.

I like the way CCP keeps it event-based, I think it solves the problem of instanced against sandbox. Surely this shouldn’t be accessible at any moment. Players should be hungry to go seek some adventures.

If all else is equal, then a veteran player will win with better skills and experience. This doesn’t help new players as much as it guarantees older players an edge.

The best methods by far have always been and always will be;

1- learn along side vets
2- fly cheap, lose lots and ask many questions.

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There may be regulations based on alpha status, skillpoints, character age, pvp activity tracker level etc.
And that is only if there will be such problem, which is not certain.

Which is the opposite of what Daichi wrote.

Restricting pvp so it’s one incompetent player against another, won’t help either of them. Jump into the sandbox, die and learn from skilled players that beat you.

Huge -1 to more instanced play. It’s only for scared people.

The point is not to completely isolate these two categories.
It is about managing the steepness of learning curve.

There can be both events with T1 frigates only for say Alphas and events with the same format for everyone.

You can find the sign of this approach in Factional Warfare, where we have instances for different size of ships. The problem there though is lack of player base, bots, risk averse farmers etc.

And again, my suggestion is to set an experiment and see what happens.

There doesn’t need to be any events. Just learn in the sandbox. It always has and always will be the best place to learn.

“Steepness of learning curve” is just a other way of admitting being risk averse. Go die and learn from the skilled players that kill you. Analyse your fights and learn from mistakes you make that are capitalised on by the players that beat you.

We don’t need more instanced play. That doesn’t help the learning curve at all. It just allows people to lock themselves away from the sandbox, because they are risk averse.

I didn’t reply to “1”

To fly with vets you first need to find vets than speak your language, then wait for fleet, then find targets.

But. Why, as a new player, I even want to do all of these things if I don’t know the thrill of PvP battle yet?

I suspect that his feedback loop is too big to even get interested.

“Risk averse” is not a constant trait of a character.

It is temporary state of mind relative to some activity.

People will be less risk averse if they will get at least basic understanding of what buttons to press :slight_smile:

I was very risk averse myself until I got some experience through frigate skirmishes at FW.

Then maybe suggest a tutorial on what buttons to press?

The best place to learn that already exists.

This is true. So do number two and go make some friends or frenemies. Keep in touch and join chat channels.

But the feedback loop you’re going to create is players that think anything that isn’t a ‘fair fight’ is cheating. A culture that doesn’t work with the rest of eve.

I think you also underestimate how a big part of pvp is just learning how to hunt and survive in the sandbox.

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There is a huge gap between tutorial and experience that newbros can get in the wide open. It may not be such experience that may be learnt upon.

The gist of my suggestion is to give more accessible PvP experience for new players in a very basic form (T1 frigs with T1 derp modules).

Also I have updated the original post to make things clear: “somewhat regular” in my opinion is to make such events once or twice a month.

This is too requires some motivation.
I personally do not have great soft skills but I love EVE and I love PvP very, very much.

There is FFA format which breaks that “fairness” pretty well.

I don’t, really. These are core skills, but they may be learnt with much stronger desire when one gets a taste of what PvP could feel like.

not read any of the other replies yet, but my response to this is

“Abyssal Glory Skin Bro”

That has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of situation I’m talking about. We aren’t talking about remotely the same thing.

You’re talking about Saturday night roams or situations where people message eachother and say ‘lets fight’. This is makes up barely a spec of the actual pvp that happens in eve.

I’m talking about entire regions being put to the flame and their inhabitants evicted. 20+ cats ambushing freighters in hisec. Stalking a group for a couple weeks to find out who their indie alts are and which wormhole they live in. Ambushing explorers by sitting in already scanned sites. Baiting that MTU hunter that’s been harassing you all week. Infiltrating a corp so that when you wardec them you can really clean house.

In eve, in the sandbox, the vast majority of conflicts between players are decided before a single shot is fired. That is what pvp ‘feels’ like.

Teaching players how to hunt or not be hunted is 99% of pvp. And the arena will teach them none of that. It won’t tell you what cyno-bait is, or a log on trap. It won’t teach them why certain ships don’t show up on d-scan or how their ‘safe spot’ got probed down. It will instead make them dull to it. It will lead them into a false sense of ‘fair’.

Instancing is one of the many things throttling the game. Eve cannot be instanced as it requires people being in space to be content for other people, and them be content for someone else, and so forth. Putting people in an isolated bit of space that can’t be accessed instead of having them in space is very anti-eve. Wormholes are about as much restricted as you can get, because they can still be accessed, but it’s just a bit more controlled.

You did not seriously think that a playerbase could contend with the will of Filthy Lucre?...there are none that can.

"Specifically, their stance on instanced PvE, and why a lot of the player base despises it.

One of the points that stood out on the stream is that CCP said they are designing future PvE content with limiting possible engagement from other players in mind, because “people won’t do stuff” if they get ganked all the time. So the things we’ve been seeing recently, like acceleration gates which lock if x people are already in the pocket are not mistakes or exceptions, but the future.

The fact is, EVE is a 18 year old game, it’s core in-space mechanics are 18 years old and it will never be competitive with newer and more modern games from a “mechanical enjoyment” perspective. The primary point on which EVE can stay competitive is because it allows for more unrestricted player interactions than other MMO’s. By choosing to prioritize instanced PvE over dynamic player interactions, CCP have thrown out the baby and kept the bathwater.

Every player running abyssals or some other future instanced PvE is a player who removes themselves from the sandbox, who is not a target for roamers, who does not need a corporation to provide support infrastructure/defense. The more that CCP pushes instanced PvE over sandbox PvE, the less that people will do sandbox PvE, and the less that people will go into hostile/neutral space to hunt them because there simply aren’t targets. With the disappearance of rabbits comes the disappearance of foxes as well.

Understand why people play your game CCP, there are far, far better games than EVE for people looking for instanced PvE. Yes Abyssals require more APM and better fits than ratting, but 3 ratters in space are part of the PvE > Hunter > Defense ecosystem, 3 hawks in an abyssal are not."