Could you make an improved mining ship for non multibox players?

EVE Technology and Research Center Player Features & Ideas
101

I am now 100% convinced you have not been following CCP development nor community discussions around patch notes. I hope you are able to take a bit of a history lesson because it’s clear you have either not lived through it or have not been paying attention.

Because quoting the exact blog post you did, ironically, completely undermines your position.

As a brief aside, recall we are here because you claimed we „can’t know CCPs design thoughts“, when they have been very transparent (in blogs, on the official discord, in the forums, via CSM members).

Check the dates of the big posts, yours and mine.

Your 2016 citation is the beginning of the „rorqual golden age“ which the entire community and CSM (even Goonswarm) told CCP „don’t do this, you will break the game“. They were told it wouldn’t be solo players using it but the big multiboxed mining fleets.

You know, this is the exact criticism we’ve been providing you. It turns out this criticism is rooted in actual history, not just a made up concern. And your blog post is the supporting evidence of your critics.

Well, CCP went forward anyway despite the community saying „no“. They f*cked around and found out by 2019 that they completely broke the game‘s economy. So much so that capital ships proliferated, they got their gold rush of skill injector sales so multibox mining fleets could all sit in Rorquals, and the mineral economy was horribly devalued with huge stockpiles, and nullsec became entrenched and stale with only larger blobs that could field supercap umbrellas to protect the Rorquals.

Those fabled „solo mining“ Rorquals in lowsec and nullsec without super capital umbrellas? Didn’t exist. Or existed very briefly before they were blown up by skilled hunters dedicated to the task.

So the change had zero impact for „solo miners“ or small groups. It was solely used by big groups, almost certainly in a multiboxed setting.

Hence why the very next mining update was years worth of a whole scarcity period.

My more recent 2021 blog post is CCP at the end of the scarcity period trying to actually create a healthy and balance mining ecosystem long term to avoid the mistakes made in your citation.

That means that yes, we know from your blog post that CCP deliberately intended to try to create a bigger booster Rorqual mining ship and it wrecked the whole economy, was against the wishes of the CSM and the playerbase, stagnated nullsec, let multiboxers scale crazily, and required years of scarcity.

And so learning that lesson, we also know CCP has deliberately intended to make Industrial Command Ships a fleet role. So your original „we don’t know their intention“ (remember the aside above, the whole reason we are on this history lesson digression in the first place) can be laid to rest.

So, thank you for bringing up the 2016 rorqual golden era blog post. It supports my criticism that your idea is not feasible, so much so that we know CCP deliberately and completely moved away from it in my 2021 citation. Thanks for helping me make the argument and shedding light on the history here.

102

Sure it is, you will notice in your wallet. And thats what you bascially argue for: more income.

Then do something that entertains you more. EVE is a game, do what is fun for you. Nobody forces you to mine all day long if you don’t like the concept.

Sure, because it’s the logical response. Mining is too simple and too low risk to justify higher rewards. And different activities in a game don’t even need to have the same depth, the same peak rewards or the same progression choices.

The advanced carreer path for a miner is to become either an industrualist and use the resources for himself or his corp or to become a mining director and offer fleets for other miners. Both offers huge options to skill into and to improve one’s gameplay. You refuse to do both, your own choice.

Then just become a PvE player if you think thats the way better choice. Mining is for players who like a chill, calm, relaxed and non-demanding gameplay. They can have that, but they will either get lower payments (which is absolutely the right thing) or they will have to cooperate with others to increase their profits further or spend more time and work building up their own little industry empire and tackling all the little profit-steps from the raw ores to a very advanced product.

You are really arguing in circles and I can only repeat: EVE doesn’t have a problem that can be fixed by adding a stronger solo-mining-ship.

103

Because quoting the exact blog post you did, ironically, completely undermines your position.

Your rebuttal to the earlier comment stated that compression and boosts were solely intended as a support mechanic and never meant to be tied to solo ships. I gave you a blogpost proving that they were originally intent on expanding mining ships to be bigger and better even as solo platforms. However because this change was done in a terrible manner it caused a historic economic catastrophe, which led to them having to spend years fixing their mistakes. My original stance is that because of this poor implementation and it’s consequences they were forced to leaving mining as is since they couldn’t come up with a better solution to solo mining ships. Which is why I’m trying to suggest something that could work as it has restrictions that aren’t worth it for multiboxing.

Nothing is undermined.

104

Sure it is, you will notice in your wallet. And thats what you bascially argue for: more income.

You mean my wallet which would still be smaller than a player running instanced dungeons in a cruiser?

Then do something that entertains you more. EVE is a game, do what is fun for you. Nobody forces you to mine all day long if you don’t like the concept.

If a solution to a problem is “Avoid it” then the system is flawed.

Sure, because it’s the logical response. Mining is too simple and too low risk to justify higher rewards. And different activities in a game don’t even need to have the same depth, the same peak rewards or the same progression choices.

We’re just never going to see eye to eye here. I completely disagree with the notion that both sides don’t have to be comparably even. Especially because of this supposed “risk”. How often is a player who actually does mid/high end PvE die? Over the course of 3-4 months I would be surprised if it was even 5-6. Compare that lost ISK to the massive amount that he’s gaining and it’s not even worth noting.

They can have that, but they will either get lower payments (which is absolutely the right thing)

Again, this is just something that we’ll never agree on.

they will have to cooperate with others to increase their profits further or spend more time and work building up their own little industry empire and tackling all the little profit-steps from the raw ores to a very advanced product.

This is something that I find weird about your argument. You keep talking about investment and fair reward for said investment yet tack on industrial gameplay to mining. But co-operative group play, industry, PI, and manufacturing is a considerably high investment in time, work, and ISK than PvE, yet PvE will still beat it.

Shouldn’t the guy running a 1 man manufacturing plant outdo a player floating around in a marauder/dread all day printing ISK from thin air?

105

They could have. But they didn’t. That is notable. They could have done anything to keep such a solo mining ship around. But they didn’t. Probably because your idea is completely untenable.

You have had your idea repeatedly analyzed to show how it:

  • Is not actually stopping multiboxing (this one you have already willfully said you don’t see a problem, no rebuttal, just fingers-in-ears), and
  • is a Rorqual+ that doesn’t need to seige to boost/compress which is completely overpowered, and
  • is not reflecting an understanding of actual organized group play.

At this point, it is clear you are not interested in a discussion, just wanting to stand on a soap box shouting a greedy belief.

106

Fixed that for you. And: Yes, you should earn less because you risk less and you work less hard. But that isn’t even the case, as I have already shown you that by mining HighValue Ore in a Fleet you can even outmine a T4 Abyssal Gila. My corpmates are doing that every day, a single Hulk mining Gneiss with Fleetboost makes more per hour than a T4 Gila, period. You maybe can’t do that 6 hours a day because you can’t find that many fleets or Gneiss Rocks, but that isn’t even nessessary, because you can do other steps to increase your profits during the times nobody else is online or you don’t have access to the highest value resources. It simply averages out over time if you are good.

You are the only one who talks about “avoiding” it. Not every activity in a game is liked equally by everyone. If EVE mining isn’t fun for you, do something else, simple as that. That doesn’t mean it is “flawed”, because it seem to work for many many other people, and work well. Tbh, the more you keep talking here, the clearer it becomes that the whole thing is a complete “you-problem”.

Yeah, thats obvious. You want equal pay for unequal risk and work. Thank god the Devs realize that is a very stupid idea.

Depends entirely on the business the industrial guy is doing. I am pretty sure I can easily outperform any PvE runner with 30 Science Jobs, 30 Manufacturing Jobs, 30 Reactions, 18 Planets, a few hundred Market Orders and a Mining Barge at my disposal if I am willing to be as active as he is. Which means: clicking as hard as he has to do it, making decisions at the rate he has to do it, undocking for the hours he does it. Can you? Maybe not, who knows, depends on your softskills and knowledge.

107

They could have . But they didn’t. That is notable. They could have done anything to keep such a solo mining ship around. But they didn’t. Probably because your idea is completely untenable.

The point being made is that the game was shaped around the consequences from prior mistakes, regardless of what they actually wanted to do. The reason it wasn’t pursued further is likely the massive trauma that their first attempt caused and being distracted with trying to fix their mistakes and develop the game further.

You have had your idea repeatedly analyzed to show how it:

  • Is not actually stopping multiboxing (this one you have already willfully said you don’t see a problem, no rebuttal, just fingers-in-ears), and
  • is a Rorqual+ that doesn’t need to seige to boost/compress which is completely overpowered, and
  • is not reflecting an understanding of actual organized group play.

It does stop multiboxing, and I explained why. In the proposed idea you can’t run 2 of the same ship within a grid. So in order to run several ships you have to spread them throughout multiple belts and anoms, or even multiple systems, which is going to clash with other people in sovereign space. And the idea was never intended to be statistically stronger than a hulk already is in yield, so if you’re multiboxing then it’d just make more sense to run a booster and standard alts so that you can scale up as much as you want without the SP, ISK investment, and added hassle of having to fan them out and monitor them.

I actually did say that it does need to siege. The idea is an alternative industrial core with a low cycle time that checks the current grid for cores of the same type, which results in it locking itself if it finds one. The ship/s that utilizes it would be completely new, and the module wouldn’t be compatible with anything pre-existing. Add in a new ship skill for it, lock it behind exhumer and industrial command ship pre-requisites, and tack on the core to the industrial reconfiguration skill. Then finish it off with a price tag off about 2-3 bil.

Also, it’s not a rorqual. The Rorqual has insane storage capacity, fleet hangers, maintenance bays, one of the best tanks in the game, shield boosts, shield reps, extremely high defensive capabilities with drones, the ability to jump and bring fleets with it, and it’s boosts/compression can be shared with as many ships as you want. It’s a fleet support platform and the only thing you’re taking away from it is boosts and compression.

My ideal ship is meant to have no command boosts of any kind, no more tank than a porpoise, no more storage than maybe a retriever, and just enough damage to shake off rats. The yield would ideally be comparable to a boosted hulk when the core is active, but not stronger.

And I don’t really understand what it is that you’re saying with the third line.

108

You know I spent a little while typing out another rebuttal and then I just kinda stopped and thought about it. I started this thread a month ago and I’ve spent who knows how much time reading arguing points against the post and replying back. All for the sake of a suggestion that likely might not even get read by the devs, much less ever considered. We’re 108 replies deep after this one, and that’s just from the same 3-4 people. And all for something started on a whim over a personal annoyance I had with the game.

So I’m going with this: You’re right, and I’m wrong.

Cause while my time is plentiful and definitely worthless, I’m not too sure how much longer I feel like arguing on a forum post over something that has no value.

It’s been a riveting debate and a pleasure to make your acquaintances. Sorry for being a bad pilot with bad takes. Best wishes.

109

You can’t create a new hull that will encourage and reward solo mining without it automatically scaling up with more accounts.

A better suggestion would be to create a new resource site type where you have to actively move between ore nodes as they appear that rewards using the survey scanner to mine up limited of time ore nodes before they despawn in a more efficient way, encouraging active mining vs passive multiboxing, bonus points if you can make the site cool AF by introducing those volumetric clouds, giant asteroid skybox effect, and hide the nodes and use visuals, like a glowing spot in the cloud to guide players rather than a node on the overview. Also new miner modules with lower cycle times

Multiboxing becomes less enticing the less AFKable the activity becomes, and mining at its core is an AFK activity thanks to the fact the most efficient way to pull ore are strip miners who at max bonuses have 40 second cycle times :sleeping:

110

The Venture is a sufficiently capable ship to mine with for a solo player and if that’s not enough there is the Pospect and Endurance.
I don’t see why CCP should spend time and effort for redundancy. If you want more iskies for mining you can join a mining fleet.

In short: CCP could but they won’t.

1 Like
111

Yeah but if you want to pay for your account you are looking at grinding for 90 hours.

112

Yeah but no, I’d rather keep the last bit of sanity I have left for more important things, thank you very much.

113

How about going without? That’s a novel idea.

1 Like
114

OP, just forget about mining. Whoever told you that mining is a good activity, that it makes you profit and it is fun was lying.

It is neither. If you prefer to play solo AND if you prefer to not AFK while you “play” then switch to different activity.

You are still new and naive. So let me get straight with you.

This forum is not there for players to give suggestions to CCP. They don’t care, they don’t read. As long as players pays the $$$ and they still do, nothing will change. I reported about 20 bugs over 6 years I play this game, none of them was fixed to this date, why do you think they would change some rudimentary mechanic?

As long as I read these forums, never has been a suggestion posted here implemented. And a minigame for mining to make it more active activity was suggested more than twenty times already.

The only purpose of this forum category is to:

  • relieve stress of the players
  • create fake feeling that CCP is listening what players wants
  • time sink, another way for players to keep themselves busy while they can’t play or while nothing happens in game (which is damn often)

Mining will never change because:

  • vast majority of players actually like the fact it is that simple (to AFK or bot)
  • CCP is not changing core mechanics
  • CCP is happy with the fact that the mining is a multiboxing activity and that new players realizes this and it forces them to multibox, multibox = more $$$ for CCP (in fact CCP has no reason to make anything less realiant on number of players/accounts because the more players/accounts it needs the more $$$ they earn)

So just do abyssals too and forget about mining.

115

Rubbish, mining can make you lots of Isk, maybe not fun I’ll grant you that but if you want a chill activity and zero stress it’s great.

116

Rewarding a dedicated player with less boredom and PAYING HIM to attend the screen, being antibot, is THE right aproach.

Laser/strip takes TOO LONG. Accelerating the laser cycle (0-50%) by doing a kind of asteroid-related minigame that needs player attention can and may fix the issue you exposed. As example, some miners do “discovery” stuff while mining, so, project discovery could be revamped to fit in mining skillset -i.e. lore wise, mark asteroid veins so the laser energy is better directed-

AFK multiboxers can skip completely, but mine at lower rate per account.

In long term, encoranging players to be active pays itself with more active accounts than the money earned by few multiboxers, that in much cases pays theirs omegas by plexing not by opening their wallets.

In any case, this capability could fit in a hipotetically t3 mining hull (frigate or barge size, not higher). T3 hulls are focused on flexibility, so, why not a t3 barge or science frigate that can:

  • Improved mining strip CPU core: The one related before.
  • Geological Sampling: very short laser cycle that addapts to the vein to pull at least 1 unit per cycle, revising yields per second accordingly and with a small chance to get exceptional ores.
    +Siege control module: built-in warp core stab and improved shield size at expenses of current drawbacks and cannot use the other modes while activated.

Just brainstorming.

117

That’s what Porpoise and Orca boosts are for…

3 Likes
118

You are funny! :slight_smile:

119

You are something I’m not allowed to say on this forum.

Why do any of you think the entry level profession in the game should pay like the high end game play? That’s the same stupidity that demands $20/hr minimum wage for McDonald’s workers, then gets surprised when McDonald’s lays off hundreds of workers.

You want to make more ISK in EvE, get better at EvE. Learn to ninja mine wormhole gasses and nullsec mercoxit.

120

:rofl: That will be the day when the game gets better again.