CSM 15 - All You Need to Know

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I know what ‘gaming mechanics’ is but that isn’t how Brics used it - I read his post and saw it as he was happy to exploit poor mechanics…

As for the rest, it really only confirms that the CSM should cease to exist.

If CCP as it appears are so unprofessional they won’t listen to an advisory group THEY created, that group should be disbanded.

Man you are doing a better job showing why the CSM should not exist than i ever could.

You are right though, just like everything else CCP have done in recent years, the CSM is cheap and nasty.,.

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Yes, it’s how I used it - gaming the system simply means min/maxing outcomes to ensure that you’re doing everything you can to get the outcomes that you want. That’s what null sec groups do. That’s what doctrines are for. That’s what ratting fits and mining fits and supercapital umbrellas and Paps and pings are all good for.

That they have analyzed the CSM and its voting structure and maximized their participation so they can make sure they have a seat at the table is what any organization like this does.

There is a view that the CSM has all kinds of power and influence and bends CCP to its will. This is wrong.

There is a view that the CSM has no influence at all and CCP just ignores it all the time. This is also wrong.

The truth is that each CSM is different, each member is different, and the influence they have or don’t have depends on a thousand variables, from which CCPer you’re talking to, the subject matter, how big an issue it is, how persuasive someone can be, and a whole host of other factors. This nonsense that it’s all either 100% all powerful or 100% useless is farcical.

To get the benefit of the CSM via focus groups or external polling, you’d be paying a market research company at least $20k a month, minimum, just to put these groups together, identify influencers in the community, craft messaging and write surveys. My wife does this for a living, she’s represented video game industry groups in the past, and I’m telling you - these guys get the benefit of a 24/7 ten person focus group of experts and influencers for the price of a couple weeks in Iceland and 5 subscriptions. It’s an absolute steal and the info they get is far more valuable than surveys (which are merely a snapshot in time) or focus groups (which are a pain in the ass to do and evaluate).

Throw in that Hilmar wants it, and there’s zero chance it’s going anywhere. People still bringing up “disband the CSM” might as well be talking to a brick wall.

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That’s exactly how Brisc used it.

. . .

Those are examples of CCP listening. That doesn’t mean the CSM has any power, though. It’s the most cost-effective focus group CCP could create, and it’s as fair a sampling of knowledgeable players with good communication skills who are willing and able to give up their vacation time to travel to freaking Iceland for a week as they’re likely to get.

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Wow now you’re putting forward an awesome argument for why mega groupos in nulsec should be disbanded.
Keep it up mate, you’re on a roll.

Interesting, so you’ve just told anyone who cares to read it - The CSM is a popularity quest - If someone at CCP likes an individual they “might” listen to them.
Strike 3 - The CSM is OUT.

Not much for a bit of decent insight into what the whole player base would like to see. Professional companies all around the world would be paying that and far more to get valid feedback.
Another examp[le of how CHEAP CCP is.

ROFL, I’ve been saying for years he should have been replaced. He has consistantly shown a lack of leadership and a complete lack of understanding when it comes to who how and why people play EveOnline - You just added another reason he should stand down…

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No, he’s told you that the CSM and CCP are full of people.

Different people are more or less effective at communicating and being persuasive than others.
Different people are more or less open to being persuaded than others.

Congratulations, now you’re mad that human beings are involved. Do you also want to get rid of umpires because balls and strikes vary from one ump to the next?

That’s not all the CSM’s there for. It’s not just about ‘what the whole player base would like to see’. Even more of it is about ‘hey, guys, here’s what we’re thinking of doing. As people who know the game and the players, how well is this likely to work?’

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Based on that, Why would anybody want to belong to such an impotent lobby group.

The really stupid that didn’t get through (thanks to a few CSM members) - and CCP still managed to break the game as much as they have, with nothing on the horizon to show things will change…

LOL, that design method has worked so well in the past we now have a game that is all but unplayable due to stagnancy - And sadly, this came about with a primarily Sov stacked CSM.

Yep, Scrap the CSM and just let things run their course.,.

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So, now the CSM’s ‘impotent’ because EVE’s a complex system with thousands of moving parts that have minute individual variations CCP can’t accurately quantify?

Those are the players, by the way. Unless CCP’s willing to do really deep psych evaluations of each player and then spend months figuring out how they’ll interact under circumstances they won’t have modeled in advance, there’s really no way for them to accurately anticipate all the ways players will outsmart them.

And we will. Not because we’re smarter, or because we’re better at it, but just because CCP’s got what? How many did Steve estimate CCP at? Under 300 people?

So fewer than 300 physical brains competing with just the 40k we’re seeing on at one time? Yeah, they’re kind of doomed to be outwitted. Sheer brute-force mass of effort will do that. It’s the same problem literally every GM running any tabletop RPG has encountered by about their third session: a greater number of brains attacking your problems will come up with solutions you never envisioned.

And yeah, you can react and respond to that, and adapt… to one set. For one problem. At one time. But that takes time. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard ‘Ooookay… let’s break here and I’ll know what to do by next week’s session’. But CCP doesn’t have the luxury of ‘let’s take a break’, or of being able to focus on just one ‘we didn’t think of that’ at a time.

This is like modeling the weather, or mapping out all the interactions in an ecosystem (in fact, that latter one is exactly what it is). RL, weather modeling’s got a couple hundred years of data to draw on, and it still gets things wrong. Ecosystem mapping regularly encounters ‘oh, crap, we’ve never seen that before, that changes all this other crap…’ even in ecoystems we made, like urban centers.

And that’s with huge teams of statisticians and trained specialists doing it, not video game developers.

What? Dude, are you high? You’ve been bitching about the things that have been changing, and which show things will keep changing, in other threads!

Make up your mind!

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There is no way I am going to read through all 250 comments here, so I’ll just add my 2-bits for this year’s CSM run.

First, sad to see Steve out. Thanks for all your efforts past and present and wish you all the best!

This year brings something very different to the table. You may or may not be aware that the (now) second largest alliance is a HS based group. They are also the fastest growing alliance. From a look at the new corp additions they appear poised to capitalize and mobilize on this for a run. Will wait and see…
https://evewho.com/alliance/99009268

I told Brisc in another thread that personally I don’t care where someone comes from, I rather look at what they bring to the table. A “highsec” candidate may not represent what I want for the game any more than a “nullsec” candidate will. I look at their platform and see how well they engage the community.

For all the new candidates (and incumbents, lol) best of luck in this years pageant!

:smiley:

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image

lol

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Obviously, CSM 15 needs to up their game!

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So, something i never expected from you.
You’ve just stated regardless of what CCP do, they lose.
Which in simple speak means to me - Mega alliances will continue as they aslways have regardless of CCP and therefore the rest of the game doesn’t matter.

True or not - I really don’t care except that having been told mega groups will continue to stack the CSM for as long as they can. The CSM should be scrapped.
If CCP then can’t find a way to fix the problems that led to the current state - It is on them.

Your 40K vs just under 300 is wrong btw - It’s The Imperium vs 1 + a small team of Devs with the majority of them having a single goal.
As the CSM is The Imperium - It should be done away with. Let CCP do their job without the influence of the biggest group in the game pointing them “in the right direction”.

I included the latest round of shite in “recent years” - I have yet to see anything that indicates I will be able to come back to the game and play it in anyway close to how I used to. I’m yet to see anything resembling a time line as to when any relevant change may be attempted.
The well known and biggest issues have not been addressed - Yet everything around them has been nerfed into the ground.

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This seems to be the crux of the matter. What CCP will, or can do about it is still a good question.

As for the CSM, I thought like Sgt Ocker and was for disbanding them. But a couple of threads last year finally changed my mind. They don’t cost all that much to host. They do give feedback on most/all playstyles. And CCP does not always listen to them. And if I remember correctly, CCP does not always tell the CSM about the “pulling the rug out from under us” stunt sometimes. Also, they were the only voice on the forums with any info/insight into said stunts for a long time. Only recently have the Dev’s started to post more and help pick up the slack. (Thank you to the Dev Team for that)

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Even this toon is a Goon! :face_vomiting: I only did it for a friend of mine. :rofl:

I don’t see the CSM as influential as everyone thinks they are… :thinking:

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@Mike_Azariah i’m not omega so i can’t vote, but you got my main’s vote, who is omega. and i voted for ya last time too

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No, I’ve stated that regardless of what CCP do, an open-ended sandbox means emergent behavior, and the sheer number of people involved means that you’re not going to get perfect predictive abilities among a small group of people whose training is not predictive behavior modeling.

Wow. Way to be dismissive of all of the things CCP didn’t know about Wormholes. That wasn’t the Imperium. Or CCP needing to be told about the problems of high-sec wardecs. Or not recognizing (even after they were told by people who were doing it in highsec—myself included) that Resource Wars’ rewards weren’t in line with the effort involved. Or jetcanning, to go back to the oldest freaking example of this in EVE.

It’s not ‘The Imperium’ that looks for the best ways to do things. It’s not ‘The Imperium’ that comes up with things CCP isn’t expecting. It’s everyone. It’s the players. All of us.

Well, then you’re seriously oversimplifying in order to get to a statement you can get mad about. No, mega alliances won’t ‘continue as they always have’. They’ll adapt. Just like everyone else.

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There is actually quite a few things CCP could do to limit the right now limitless power of the mega groups - What stops them is the fear of Mittens and or his equivalent calling CCP out. We saw a few years back when Mittens encourages his members to play “another game” that many will listen. CCP can’t afford to alienate the biggest player run group in the game for more reasons than “they might all quit”. The long term damage these mega groups could do to the game if they chose to could well be such that CCP could not come back from it.

The current situation takes me back to “We don’t want to wreck The game, We want to wreck Your game” days. Except this time it is CCP throwing it out there.
The mega groups know full well they have CCP right where they want them.
Sadly CCP is actually helping the mega groups stay in front of the proposed “curve” simply by tossing out blanket nerfs with no clear vision or timeline.

Only thing to be addressed right now for many is - Do we all need to join/rejoin mega alliances to persue/continue our developed play styles, Does CCP have a plan, Or do numbers of the “average player” (those without trillions of isk) just give up and stay alpha/quit/ship spin forever?

Eve used to be a sandbox where everyone had choices as to how they played - NOW the sandbox has been shrunk and is becoming limited to a few mega groups if you want too stay in Sov nulsec.

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I cant argue with you. I can only repeat time will tell.

Vote with your wallet. I did.

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Mate that is just too funny - The current state of the game and that for the foreseeable future means I can’t play my playstyle - When exactly do you see yourself having to drop subs because your playstyle has been nerfed out of existance.

When exactly is the Imperium throwing in the towel and disbanding?
Or are they set to continue as a coalition - Without trying to hide “monolopy, elitism or powerbloc” as anything other than it is - The Imperium "adapting to the changes won’t change the fact they dominate certain aspects of the game.

You know as well as i do, your group will not cede anything to CCP in the name of game balance and if forced to will do their best to fight it by any means.

Right there is the oversimplification.
Adapting for the single largest group in the game isn’t close to what smaller groups will go through.

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My playstyle is subcapital logistics. S’why I’m looking at a logi Ikitursa build… cuz otherwise? I don’t live long enough to be at all effective.

Just because your chosen method of adapting is ‘give up’ doesn’t mean everyone’s is. We won’t cede anything to CCP in the name of game balance? Our CSMs have gone on record on the Meta Show in support of the overall roadmap these changes are part of—for the good of the game.