CSM Summit - Null rewards

Hello looking at the latest MER

It is obvious that null is still out of balance, with the rest of EVE especially Delve.

Delve did 5.8 trillion in mining in June, compared to 1.2 in Metropolis and 1.3 in Sing Liason.

Then looking at the bounties Delve got 4.7 Trillion in NPC bounties compared to 0.5 in Metropolis and 0.2 to Sinq Liason.

Then when you look at peak concurrent users Delve barely shows up.

This shows that there are too many belts and anomalies in Null.

Under the risk vs reward system WH space is meant to have the highest risk and the highest rewards and it does but it is very limited as to the number of people it can support.

This does not seem to be the case in Null where while the risk has been increased the rewards are still almost infinite.

The number of people who can be supported in any system by belts and anomalies etc… needs to be reduced significantly.

CCP has done well ignoring the CSM and hopefully they get rid of it and continue to make changes for the good of the game.


I wouldn’t scrap the CSM if thats what you meant. Its symbolic of the only game where the players really have that level of a voice. (At least that i can think of, no other game i’ve played has gone so far)

And I agree we need some manner of depletion mechanic or cap similar to wormholes i just haven’t personally seen a thread well thought out about it yet. And honestly it should apply to all sec status systems evenly, make people move about highsec more so you dont just get your highest counts in systems that are well known or in tactical locations resource wise, populate more low sec pockets, etc.

CCP wanted to create incentives for people in sovereign nullsec to use their space. Activity defense multipliers and upgradable ihubs delivering a continuous stream of anomalies for people to farm was the result - and it worked!

Now that we have moon mining I question whether there is any need for ore anomalies - maybe CCP should just get rid of them. CCP does have levers to adjust the combat anomalies - respawn rate and bounty payouts for each ship can be changed. There has been a significant drop with the changes already made so I expect they’ll wait a bit before making additional changes.

Except the CSM has been used in history to push the Null agenda and has mostly been used by CCP to explain CCPs bad decisions to us.

All it has meant is that there is no real customer service.

these are poor comparisons.

Comparing Delve to Highsec regions is a gross miss representation of the figures.

I do agree that Delves figures are our of wack in relation to other SOV null regions however this is more down to the ability of the owning Block to lock down the region effectively making it a safer place to live than other regions. yes there are WHs that offer a backdoor in to the region however they are mass limited so force projection in to the region is stunted. the umbrella still works.

No it is a clear indication that null systems are able to support way too many people by as much as 5 times too many.

the risk associated farming, owning & defending your average Null system is far greater by a magnitude of 5X.

I would expect that a system in null sec with an active alliance and reasonable SOV indices would be able to support a greater number of players than any system in Sinq Liason. this dose not show an imbalance, just an intended game mechanic that under the current system allows for a greater generation of ISK (through bounties, market & mining) for any sufficiently large SOV entity.

so Delve. (and its owning alliance) was able to generate

  • 5.8T ISK from mining (tied up in assets) (all sources - belt,Ice, Anom, Moon)
  • they used a large portion of this income to produce Products for the market and alliance/Block use netting 17.5T ISK in Assets.
  • they only then Exported 1.5T ISK to HS opting to seed local markets with a minimal need for imports
  • the local market was able to generate (move around) 32T ISK (this includes multiple resales of the same asset Eg an excavator drone)
  • Gun mining generated 4.7T in liquid isk (no metric has been specifically given for NPC loot scooped)
  • liquid isk gained in this manor is siphoned out through Market orders and ship destruction

Keep in mind here that the total output of Delve is ~6.2T isk (NPC isk & Exports) any money that remains within Delve stays there and feeds the local market and Alliance War machines/ production lines.

a titan costs (with multiple Std fits) around 100Billion at a conservative estimate. now alliances can produce roughly 10 per Trillion.
with a total of 17.5T isk minus 1.5T isk in exports the alliance is able to knock out 60 fully fitted and combat adaptable titans in the Graphs time period. more likely though this number is around 5% of the total production output with a larger emphasis on Normal Cap and Sub cap Production. again most of this stays within the alliance and is used for Fleet and Alliance related activities.

Trade Value is a non equator in on this graph as, as i previously mentioned, this counts all trade and dose not account for multiple trade of the same item.

Compared to WH space and no asset safety.

No its not. Hell its not even 5 times more dangerous than lo-sec.

About time Null faced up to the fact that risk still does not equal reward and it needs culling.

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the same numbers for HS (Sing Liason)
NPC protection.
100% asset safety within NPC stations.
Safe(ish) PVE through mining, Missions, Expo, invasions/incursions
dont need to actively defend the Space for optimal Isk generation

  • 1.3T isk was generated through Mining (all sources)
  • this was used to generate 4T isk in assets through production.
  • .1T ISK was exported (most likly to the forge) with 4.9T Isk going towards the Regional Market Generating (move around) 24T ISK (this includes multiple resales of the same asset Eg a combat drone)
    NPC kills (through Missions/Exploration) generated .2T isk this disparity can be accounted for by Rat Type, Bounty & availability)
  • again the region was able to sustain its own market with out the need for any significant imports.

the total output of ISK for the Region was .3T isk (bounties + Export) the rest remaining in the local system .

Production in HS is a different beast however with the total output of the region was a total of 3 titans (with multiple Std fits). 90% of this production will have gone in to the market in stark contrast to Delve…

a total of 3.3T isk (1.5T Sinq / 1.8T Delve) was removed from the game through Destruction.
HS also have heavy Tariffs for market orders in NPC stations. this will account for around 10% of the total regional out put. with a an ISK generation for the Graph Period of .29T Isk

please take in to account that i am not an economist and am only using rough figures pulled from the graph

WH statistics are intentionally left out of the equation and graph

so my point stands to take Delve statistics and compare it with Sinq Liason Stats is a big miss representation of the graph.

maybe if you had compared Delve to a similar region of SOV null then it would have been a fairer representation of the Garph and the point you are trying to argue

I was comparing a region with more players Sinq compared to Delve and denoting that delve is a massive outlier. Everything you just wrote adds to that fact.

Delve has 97 systems 12 of witch are controlled by the Blood raider NPCs
the dominant Alliance is Goon Swarm with 90% control of SOV systems (100% with coalition)

Sinq Liason has 109 systems 25 of witch are Low sec.

and? what? You are trying to point out how unbalanced risk and reward are in Null. Either way you are.

A Larger player count dose not mean more generation. after all the resources available in any given 24H period are finite.

  • the PVE content available is different in HS & Null
  • Null mining will yeild better Ores from belts and moons (with T2 production mats coming primarily from null moons)
  • NPCs in null are harder to kill (outside of drifter, incursions & invasions)
  • Missions are readily available for HS players with little to no risk of direct player intervention (destruction of the players ship)

the comparison between the 2 will never be fair

please refer to my first response. im not arguing the disparity, just that you are presenting a false truth by comparing the 2 regions

There are a few reasons why Null mining makes more than high sec mining.

  1. Null Ores are worth far more than Veldspar, Kernite et al. And they have better yields. If Eve ever implements the idea of mining systems out then High sec will be the first area of Eve void of all mining since it has been mined over and raped by the empires for hundreds of years. The rise of the capsuleer being relatively new in the time scale means Null and Low have far more Ore available then empire space.

  2. It takes work and real effort to get systems set up for mining. Industry indexes need to be raised and Ihub upgrades installed then those indexes have to be kept up for the best sites to spawn. I am against the idea of a systems diminishing returns if mined heavily.

  3. Unlike High sec where virtually nobody seems to work together Low sec, Null sec, and WH’s always work together to defend what they have. Is it safer than high sec? In some ways yes, but that is because the players make it that way, we are our own concord. Why is it ok for CONCORD to show up and one shot anyone attacking you in high sec but not ok for a null block to actively bring an overbearing response to defend their assets? Even under the BO, which many of us in Null had no problem with, we had active intelligence via actual pilots in space scouting. We still knew when a group was roaming because we still had active eyes out scouting and reporting.

  4. Why do people who have never lived in Null sec, low sec, etc feel the need to complain about an area they never venture into. Most time in game spent in NPC corps or high sec corps who show no real losses in game and fewer kills which then makes high sec seem pretty safe indeed.

  5. Again Null sec entities make their space usable and somewhat safe through the sheer effort and activity of their member base. Do you have any idea what the logistics and defense wings of a Null entity go through weekly to make their space what it? It is usually in the hundreds of hours, during wars it can be in the thousands so in a way the reward isn’t just a risk vs reward situation but rather an effort vs reward because that space is made the way it is through sheer effort and work.

If you want better ISK making potential nothing is stopping any player from leaving high sec and going to Low, Null, or a WH group, putting in the effort and receiving the gains. I lived 80% of my Eve life in high sec. I moved to Null, found a good group to belong to and would never return to high sec again. That’s my choice and I stand by it while allowing others to play where and how they choose to play.

Yes but the problem is that null makes too much for its risk level.

I have lived in Null and WH space and the risk in null is a lot lower than WH space but a lot higher rewards.

This needs to be fixed as it is killing the game.

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Numbers quite simply say otherwise. During the blackout the wormhole crowd was able to make more ISK than all of null combined. And the wormhole community is a pretty small section of the overall game community.

The VNI has been nerfed out of its niche. Myrmidons make much less per tick. Abyssal runner make more money in a given time frame than the average line member attempting to rat in null. Somebody station trading in high-sec makes a lot more than the people ratting.

What actually needs fixing is the blasted mentality of people like you who whine incessantly even when presented with facts that utterly destroy your narrative.