Sometimes they do that, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they have arguments, sometimes they don’t. I still value the open discussion, as there might be people reading through these posts and trying to make up their own mind. Given the possibility that larger stakeholders like Goons have a paid propaganda department, it doesn’t automatically mean that the single individuum is resistant against any form of reason. Of course it would cloud their mind at least a bit. If they really have some direct line to CCP, it will be something no one can ever prove, as this would enrage almost the entire playerbase to an extent that could easily kill the game at this point. So I guess speculating about that doesn’t really help us. What could help shining light on a number of question though, would be a greater number of voices asking CCP about more specifics in the MER. If we get more details, maybe we can find more answers.
You do realize the exports and imports in this case cancel out. You cannot do this to create a trade deficit (or a surplus for that matter).
Whatever, you sound more than a bit loony on this one.
You do realize that things like ammo are tiny right? Things like faction ammo which is often very popular in doctrine fits. And then there are modules. How much does a 5MN MWD II cost? Lowest price in Jita is 4,799,910.94 and the volume? 10m3. Gee, that is 479,991.094 ISK/M3. And a 500MN MWD is even worse in that th price is 11,398,997.95 ISK and the volume is…10m3. So the volum/ISK in the case of the 5MN MWD II is 0.00000208 and for the 500MN MWD II is 0.00000088 whereas the Import M3 divided by ISK imported is 0.00100079 several orders of magnitude larger. Even a Machariel which costs 567,799,998,00 IS only takes up 50,000 m3 when packaged or a volume-to-ISK ratio of which is 11x larger than the 0.001 volume-to-ISK ratio for imported volume divided by imported ISK. And how big are PLEX? 0.0002 m3. Sorry but I’m not seeing your story here. If Goons were pulling the trick you outlined the imported m3 divided by ISK should be even smaller.
Do you even play the game?
Because your explanation is idiotic?
And now you are doubling down on your idiocy. If you reduce Goons incomes what do you think Goons will do in regards to imports…probably reduce them. So this kind of foolishness is like shooting yourself in the foot to shoot Goons in the foot.
Right, all that time spent moving PLEX around via your convoluted scheme entails no costs. Players are simply going to it…because. Never mind that they could be doing something interesting or fun. Nope moving PLEX via your scheme is what we all do in GSF. GMAFB.
Actually no. See the items I noted above. If it were PLEX that were driving the imports the imported M3 should be even smaller. Maybe if you actually logged in and actually looked at things like modules and how big they are and their price you’d see your “proof” is nothing short of nonsensical dribblings.
That is"trickle down". The theory is that the less restrictions there are on big business, the more they spend on growing business, and that this trickles down throughout the expanding network as wealth for all.
It would be an idiotic assertion, if someone had actually made it.
I didnt.
I merely stated Goons have their own manufacture/processing/research installations, and dont need to buy those services from others.
As I said. The materials are pre-fabricated/compressed outside of Delve, before being shipped into Delve for further processing.
I never said they arent buying raw materials outside of Delve.
All manufacture involves opportunity cost. Whether the resulting product is sold to the market or used by the producer, is incidental.
Not at the value you used in your OP.
Thats 112trillion less isk spent in non-Delve markets, than your initial claim.
So 50% less.
Thats not even considering the quantity of that which was not paid for off the market in isk, but was sourced by Goons internally outside Delve, nor the added value from manufacture in their own installations, which also did not contribute isk to non-Delve/non-Goons, but which increase the import stat as CCP collates them.
You assumed the import figure translates directly into how much isk they spend in non-Delve markets to non-Goons. Either you honestly failed to consider that they are pre-fabricating the materials before shipping into Delve (thus increasing its value in CCPs statistics collation systems), and sourcing them without buying them off the markets with isk, or you deliberately tried to feint away from those observations.
Nobody claimed that.
The point is how much isk are Goons spending on non-Delve/non-Goon player sourced mats. The answer is: Much less than the 227trillion you erroneously stated in your OP.
You fked up, Teckos.
Been watching this thread for awhile now. And im still struggling to understand whats the problem? Goons produce stuff alot, they import stuff into delve, imported stuff is their own or someone elses. Who cares! They rat and mine just like everyone else. All sov holders can do the same!
No. It isn’t. Trickle down is quite different. Noting that trade is mutually beneficial for both parties is not trickle down.
Trickle-down economics, also referred to as trickle-down theory, is an economic theory that advocates reducing taxes on businesses and the wealthy in society as a means to stimulate business investment in the short term and benefit society at large in the long term. It is a form of laissez-faire capitalism in general and more specifically supply-side economics. Whereas general supply-side theory favors lowering taxes overall, trickle-down theory more specifically targets taxes on the upper end of the economic spectrum.–Trickle-down economcis
Trickle down is cutting taxes so that the wealthy become more wealthy with the idea that they’ll spend that wealth and thus improve things for those with lower incomes.
Noting that trade, even between two low income individuals makes them both better off is not trickle down.
In other words, now you are asserting it. Sheesh.
It is still 112 trillion…far more than the ratting income for the same three months. And it was just some numbers pulled out of my ass. These numbers are meaningless. You makes up some crazy nonsense, then pretend you didn’t, then assert it again and then take some numbers I pulled out of my ass at face value. Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
Yeah, I did, I responded to your nutty post.
People are butt hurt that Goons have pretty much figured out how to maximize the value of their NS holdings in Delve. However, much of that value is used to import stuff into Delve. The markets in Delve are actually quite thick for NS and even many HS systems. Most of them have a crap ton of stuff, and there are dozens of doctrine ships on contract…many are things like Machariels which can only be sourced outside of Delve. The trade deficit Delve has with the rest of the game means that much Goons ISK is flowing out of Delve and into other parts of New Eden and in exchange Goons get stuff. If you make stuff (or even just sell stuff) in game you should be happy Goons are doing this as there is a good chance they are buying your stuff or helping to keep up demand in markets you participate in.
This is a very cool analogy 
Which is what I said.
Your assertion was that Goons massive isk revenue is trickling down into non-Delve/non-Goon pockets to the rate of 227trillion. I wrecked that figure.
Show me where Trump has claimed otherwise, as was your initial claim.
No, Im saying what I said all along.
Trying to misquote/misrepresent my words is a cheap tactic, Teckos.
I know you use it to force a defensive posture and repetition
Its HALF of what you claimed in OP.
Youve suddenly reduced your claim by a whopping 50%.
You claimed Goons have spent 227trillion in 3months in non-Delve markets, to non-Goon pockets. Then you backpedalled to 115trillion, and now you claim:
They are your numbers. Maybe dont pull them out of your ass next time.
I expect a much more realistic figure of how much isk Goons have spend outside of Delve towards that import figure to non-Goon/non-Delve pockets, is ~30%, so 68trillion isk over 3months, so 22.6 trillion per month.
The rest being materials they have not paid isk for off the market to other players, and added value via their own pre-fabrication of those materials outside of Delve (for which they also did not pay isk into non-Goon/non-Delve pockets), before shipping in (thus resulting in the 227trillion import figure.)
Do you still claim Goons have paid 227trillion isk to non-Goon/non-Delve pockets to comprise that import figure, in the last 3 months?
Want to revise that?
Only in your delusions.
Look, if Goons go out and buy half of 227 trillion in raw materials and then build them into 227 trillion in finished goods and services and import them into Delve…it is pretty much the same as buying them directly off the market once opportunity cost is factored in.
Using a much smaller number. Goons buy 100 ISK worth of raw materials and then turn it into 200 ISK worth of finished goods. Now they good sell it in HS and get the 100 ISK in value added. Instead they forego that 100 ISK and instead import it to Delve. It still has the same effect economically.
You are making an “I mined my own minerals therefore they are free argument.”
With made up numbers. They don’t mean anything.
Oh for crying out loud…man…this some amazingly dumb stuff.
Nope. Because your grasp of economics is that of a pre-schooler does not change anything.
That isnt possible.
There is no way that 227trillion in raw materials results in finished goods valued at 227trillion, per the way CCP collates that import value. Finished goods, almost without exception, are worth more than their constituent materials in the algorithm CCP uses to calculate import value.
Your claim Goons have paid 227trillion to non-Goon/non-Delve players in isk over the last 3 months, to the result of that import stat, is impossible and laughable.
That you can’t understand the sometimes counter intuitive aspects of economics is not my problem.
Suppose Goons are buying maelstroms. Fully built maelstroms. Then the Goons decide to stop buying them and build them directly. The demand on the maelstrom market falls right? But the demand on the raw inputs market goes up. The end result is likely that there will still be the same or just about the same number of maelstroms being built. The price of maelstroms will pretty much the same. And the price of inputs about the same.
Now, why would Goons do this? To avoid transactions costs. Those costs associated with buying maelstroms. Maybe the costs associated with building them is less. So in that sense it makes sense. But transactions costs in EVE flow into NOBODY’s wallet. Those transactions costs have another name, by and large, ISK sink.
The fact that Goons are buying maelstroms or building them will be a good thing for the maelstrom market. Either way.
Edit: Now, if Goons stopped buying maelstroms altogether…that would likely be a different story. How would that happen…well maybe if the income for Goons is nerfed that could happen.
Edit II: The transactions costs argument probably would not lead to Goons building maelstrom though. The transactions costs tend to be the same for everyone or at least they tend to average out and they tend to be linear. If there were say economies of scale then there might be something here.
No, that’s you.
The import stat is calculated off the goods (as it is) average market value at the point it passes over the region threshold. (More or less indexed to Jita.)
Your whole point, was that Goons have paid out 227trillion isk to non-Goons/non-Delve in the last 3 months, to the result of that import figure.
The only way that would be possible, is if Goons bought ALL of their import goods that comprise that stat, from other players, and in no way combined any of them through manufacture before shipping into Fortress Delve.
Are you now claiming that?
PS: Just about all players/corps/alliances buys goods off the markets. You dont see people making threads claiming they are somehow benefitting everyone with isk/trade, or taking goods off the market.
“So Goons have helped non-Goons get rich last month to the tune of 85.1 trillion ISK and for the last three months by an amount of 227 trillion ISK. That is, 85.1 trillion (or 227 trillion) ISK flowed out of Delve last month (the last 3 months) and into the wallets of mostly non-Goons. This can be put this way as well, all of those ISK bounties everyone is wringing their hands about…it all left Delve and went into the wallets of players outside of Delve…mostly non-Goons.”
This is utterly, flat out, mathematically, factually and practically false.
The import stat != how much isk Goons have paid to non-Goons/non-Delve player pockets.
Let me try a different approach here…
We have two regaions, One and Two.
In Region One we have some guys who produce 100 ISK worth of raw inputs. Then along comes a Goon who pays those guys 100 ISK and combines the inputs into an in game item worth 150 ISK. Right? So far so Good?
Now that Goon says, “I have to move this to region Two where we live for reasons.” So your assertion is that once this happens 150 ISK worth of value leaves One and moves into Two, right? Okay so lets break down One…
100 + 50 = 150 and then 150 - 150 = 0. Region One has nothing to show for this. Right? But wait. Those guys…the dudes who produced the raw inputs they still have 100 ISK in their wallet. So…something is wrong. Here.
Only 50 ISK must have left.
And…only 50 ISK must have entered region Two.
Because what left has to equal what flows into the next region. So to get that 50 ISK into region Two our intrepid Goon had to spend 100 ISK.
Now you could play with these numbers and say:
100 in raw inputs.
200 in value added.
Therefor 200 ISK of imports that the Goons paid only 100 ISK for. Goons are clearly bad and the 227 trillion ISK does not represent ISK flowing into non-Goon wallets.
But here is the other problem. EVE is a competitive MMO right? So, it is not just a Goon out there buying up these raw materials. So somebody else can come along and compete for those raw inputs too. In other words, that value added is going to be massively reduced. Even with good skills and highly researched BPOs and in a favorable system what is the profit margin on most Tech I items? Not much. It is larger for Tech II and for some items like machariels it might be pretty good too.
So even if Goons are producing all of that 227 trillion ISK worth of imports outside of Delve the reduction is not going to be that big. And in fact, chances are that unless we are talking about some items with really truly awesome profit potential, Goons engaged in this will have likely spent more ISK than the value added. That is it is like the spending 100 ISK to create an item worth 150 ISK.
Edit:
And to be clear that is only 50 ISK of value which is what would show up in the net import column.
The import column doesnt care how much, if anything, someone paid out in isk.
It only counts what the value of the imports are on the average in isk (usually roughly Jita index).
You are right, it could be higher.
My God…even basic arithmetic is beyond you…
Have fun Salvos with your innumeracy.
Edit I:
BTW, if the import column “does not care how much ISK someone paid out,” the CCP Quant et. al. are double counting things and the MERs are simply worthless crap and you should ignore them.
Edit II:
Just to be clear, I do not believe that CCP Quant is double counting.
Teckos:
If Goons (or anyone else):
- Buy, lets say 22trillion worth of raw materials outside of Delve per month.
- Manufacture/combine those materials together outside of Delve in their own facilities into products.
- Ship them into Delve.
- The import stat will show a far higher figure than the 22trill in isk they actually paid out to non-Goon players outside of Delve.
- The import stat does not care how much was actually paid in isk for those materials/products, only what their market value is.
The issue here, is how much isk are Goons actually paying out to non-Goon players, not the import value, which is no accurate indicator of that, despite your OP claiming that.
Nope most likely lower, unless the ratio of value added to value of the inputs is greater than 1.
Suppose Goons buy 100 ISK worth of inputs and combine them into something worth 300 ISK–i.e. adding 200 ISK In value (a value added to value of inputs ratio of 2) then your are correct.
If however it is the case that Goons buy 100 ISK worth of inputs and combine them into something worth 150 ISK in value (or a valued added to value of inputs ratio of 1/2) then you are wrong. Goons paid more.
Now, I’ve done a fair amount of industry and there are not too many things where you can get value added much about maybe 30% in my experience. Getting 50% would be awesome. And competition would likely drive that down in short order.
Sorry Salvos you are just flat out wrong here. Completely, totally and unequivocally wrong.
Then the MERs are wrong, if this is true. They are not capturing the true value of what is going on in the economy.
I thought you said that was irrelevant. Can you make up your mind?