Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Then why exactly are you claiming their opportunities and abilities are in any way limited?

Because they are. They can use freeports, sure - but the tax revenue from those structures is going to somebody else. They can use NPC structures, sure - and pay out the nose for it. They can use a holding corp for their structures, but the holding corp is essentially powerless and they won’t be able to defend their structures if they go this route and the war dec guys go after the structures - which they do all the time.

So they get a choice:

1. Have their own infrastructure and get decced
2. Have no infrastructure and pay somebody else
3. Have infrastructure in a holding corp but no real way to defend it.

None of those are ideal. But they are choices, and they give players a chance to create an identity and build relationships that keeps people in the game before they get a big target on their backs.

This is not going to hurt player retention at all. It’s a band aid to last until the full war dec revamp is completed.

[Black_Pedro]

@Roan_Pico

There is. It’s against the concept of an PvP-based open-world-sandbox.
Everyone must be equal in opportunities and risks and play by the same base rules (newbies, for a limited amount of time, excluded ofc).

(And yes, being member of NPC corps without being a newbie is against this concept too)

That makes no sense. why should the dude harvesting highsec belts at 10M ISK/h be at the same risk as someone shooting Sleepers for 1B ISK/h in some C6 wormhole? Risk vs. reward is fundamental to this game, and implicit in that is activities with low reward be safer. This isn’t anything new - the NPC corp has always been a place immune of wars, where in exchange for certain limitations, you can play the game in a way free from wars.

That isn’t against the core concept or idea of Eve. A safe space, free of all danger would be, but this isn’t that. Claiming this change is that is disingenuous and doesn’t help the discussion move forward.

I’m not against the idea that the NPC corps or these new social corps should have more limitations or additional risk. Maybe suicide ganking will be in need of a buff or some new criminal mechanic should be added to the game to keep highsec from becoming a complete content desert if these changes make social corps too enticing and they kill too much content. But I kinda doubt they will do much to be honest given we have always had the NPC corp.

In any case, the fact there is a way to play the game without worrying wars isn’t against the core concept of the game or anything as long as there are advantages and reasons to be in a ‘real’ player corp so players choose to open themselves up to wars. If anything, it was broken that a newbro corp of three friends with no structures was easier (cheaper) to wardec than a powerful, Keepstar-owning corp of thousands of players like Goonswarm.

But that said, we are each other’s content and people who opt-out of some of that by staying in highsec or in one of these new social corps should pay for that safety with reduced income potential.

Risk vs. Reward.

[AJ_Osiris]

The only reason anyone needs a Corp without a structure is beause there is NO other way to share assets between characters and accounts; unless you count the Trade Window which doesn’t compare.

[Tater-nuts]

Are there any hints as to the next step(s) of how war dec may be further changed?

[Daichi_Yamato]

@Brisc_Rubal

Folks who wanted to do industry the way you described above have already been untouchable - just leave your guys in a noob corp and use freeports. Right? So what is different after this change than before it?

Except corp hangars.

I can’t imagine what doing industry on a large scale is like having to trade all your blue prints and materials between individual characters.

[Daichi_Yamato]

@AJ_Osiris

The only reason anyone needs a Corp without a structure is beause there is NO other way to share assets between characters and accounts; unless you count the Trade Window which doesn’t compare.

Yeah this.

This should come at a cost. The same as not paying npc taxes.

If this really is about social groups forming without the threat of decs, i expect to see some pushing for the social corps that players (especially me) have been asking for for years.

[Saeger1737]

In it since it began, and even wrote documentation for it…

[3dgcmod]

CCP = This is like TOTALLY Wrong… Ya Think…
Who came up with this stupid stupid stupid idea… A Mushroom in a dark room ???
OMG… Really you think this is even FAIR… ??? No… it is not…

                          WOW...    just    wow.... 

War Declarations:
Corporations and alliances that control at least one structure in space are now considered war eligible. All corporations and alliances without any structures in space are no longer war eligible.

• If any corporation within an alliance controls a structure, the entire alliance becomes war eligible
• Valid structure types for war eligibility are Upwell Structures, Starbase Control Towers, Customs Offices, and Sovereignty Structures
• The location of the structure in space does not matter for war eligibility
  Corporations and alliances must now be war eligible in order to declare wars, have wars declared against them, and join wars as allies.
• If either the attacking or defending side of an active war lose their last structure in space, the war will enter a 24 hour cooldown and then end.
• If either the attacking or defending side of a war that is still within its 24 hour warmup period (before fighting starts) lose their last structure in space, the war will enter its 24 hour cooldown as soon as fighting begins. This will lead to a war that allows legal combat for 24 hours.
• Mutual wars will continue even if one or both sides lose their structures.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Saeger1737

In it since it began, and even wrote documentation for it…

Then you should have seen me in there. Faylee, Pedro, Noragen, Dom, Ima, Toxic, Cyclo - been talking to these guys every day.

[Herring]

It took me a minute to think about it, but this is actually I think going to help. If you have an aversion to war or need to protect assets that aren’t structures, you move your toons into a holding corp. If you have a need or desire to participate, you either move your characters into a corp that has structures or place a cheap one of your own. Voluntary social interaction changes = always good.

[Qia_Kare]

From the aggressor’s side, the requirement that you have your own structure increases the difficulty of declaring war, and it raises the bar on any would be allies who would join in that war voluntarily.

From the defender’s point of view, not much changes except for the NPC tax, and the access to corporate hangers. For people who are willing to forgo their concord protection and put their spaceship at risk, though, now there’s a new not insignificant barrier to entry.

I like the idea of being able to fly your own flag and have an identity. I don’t object to social corporations as a concept where the only advantages provided are those of a social nature. I have reservations about something that simplifies logistical concerns for large scale industrialists, though. Whether it has an effect large or small, being in the safety of an NPC corporation had logistical impediments that curtail established players with heavy alt presence while presenting the genuine newbie with almost no inconvenience.

Having a small time corporation eager to prove itself come into our system and start shooting up the place helped us to build our solidarity as residents of that area of space. I can’t think of a time where we were able to successfully fend them off or deal any real damage, but we none the less did reach out to one another and make an attempt to rally. We got to know each other and formed relationships through adversity we thought we could overcome.

Logging off for a week may be the meta for defenders in a war, but I have to question whether this is sound advice or just propaganda and misinformation that lead people to make bad decisions. Requiring the defender to have a space asset gives them good reason to remain for that week and I think that could benefit the war situation, but requiring the aggressor to have a space asset I am less certain of. Requiring even allies to have space assets seems like a step backwards. Allowing a social corp to get some high sec PvP in at their option when the structure requirements for a war have already been met seems excessive, to me, in pursuit of protecting the newbro.

There’s a long history of changes that have been made to Eve. Mostly for the sake of making highsec safer (and less interesting, in my opinion), so when I see a change being made to make wars more difficult (for the aggressor to declare, allies to join in on), it is a little difficult to believe that there will be a course correction later when there is no plan for the future that anyone is willing to share. Once given, any measure of safety is very hard to take away.

I feel like highsec has been backsliding bit by bit for a long time into an environment that promotes automation and inattention in its citizens, and I’m hesitant to give another inch with no indication we’d ever get it back without raising a complaint or two. Sure, this isn’t the end of the world, but you don’t get to the end until you give up your very last inch and fall off the precipice.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Roan_Pico

After that period, you drop to the common NPC corp but you will be sanctioned harsh (e.g. unable to use industry, 50% tax, …) to motivate people to join or create player corps (of which ALL are legit for war decs, no exceptions, hiding in NPC corps MUST result in hard limitations).

Sounds as effective as the 0.0 corporations that ramp up their tax rate to 100% in an effort to get people into PvP fleets. The miners in the asteroid belts don’t care what the tax rate is at, its not like it impacts their m^3/s.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Roan_Pico

Due to sanctions, bots will be forced to player corps and therefore legit targets for wardecs.

Like this would matter for the guy in drone lands who was running multiple supers with bots until wormholers caught 3 or 4 of them in a few hours with mobile warp disruptors? Even at a 50% tax rate that’s still 12 hours worth of free ISK every day for no effort, not like the bots are going to complain.

[Litsea_Reticulata]

@Roan_Pico

If people are unwilled to form groups that are able to defend themselves in an environment thats hostile by definition (remember what was said about EVE? The MMO that takes your popsicle?), its purely their fault (and they constantly blame it on others).

Unwilled?

Lets see how this plays out when the attacker hits you outside of your TZ when you’re supposed to be at work or asleep.

Is that going to be your fault for having a life or being human enough to need sleep?

[Kina_Ayami]

Wars have been there since the birth of Eve, mostly unchanged. They were there in the beginning, in its best years to today’s decline.

I lost my first ship ever to dekkers. A frigate, which i used to attack willingly a station camping battleship. It didnt end well. Ah, and i dragged another noob with me die, lol. He doesnt play Eve for a long time but i still remember his name.

Then i lost my first battleship to dekkers too. A half fitted Dominix which i wanted to bring to null to rat. I knew i was dekked but i crossed my fingers. I was blazed after only 1 jump! When i died, i was only thinking how stupid i had been - i could judt have asked a mate to scout! - and i decided to get better.

After 12 years, i’d say i have been retained…

What hasnt been there since the beginning are noob-friendly corps and all this care for new players. While i know for a fact that null sec noob friendly corps are a lot of fun, i have to say that a good 90% of high sec alpha corps or social corps or whatever are cancer. I have placed alts in some and the social interaction is often minimal. And i talk about corps with big numbers, in top positions in the recruiting adert filters for alpha friendly ( which should be removed, as they allow passive recruiting). Even those with some structure, seems completely oblivious to the game functioning and mechanics, not to talk about the ability to create fun for their members. For new players, even trying to fight back, to target and shoot somebody before exploding, that would be a bounding experience with their mates and Eve.

As a war-dekker myself, i am only slightly concerned about this incoming modification. As a Eve- player i dont like the fact that it increase safety without nerfing rewards. But this is so true even for noob corps. It’s easy to use a one-man corp to set up a citadel. Also because dekkers will hardly come for a one-man corp only to shoot a structure, because it’s 1) boring; 2) usually very little rewarding.

A better solution would be a nerf or noob corps and soon to be unflagged corps. A progressive tax that grows with char age, impossibility to access anything bigger thana procurer or a t1 industrial, max 10 market orders, max 2 industry jobs, etc etc. At that point, when you flag yourself for war, you do get a real reward for a potential risk. And people wouldnt find war odd at all. Personally i would be fine seeing my fishing pond reduced if thet fugitives are accepting a reward reduction.

In any case i bet a banana that this war nerf will not increase player retention.
Diluiting the strong brand Eve has as a harsh game, will only make it sinilar to all other games out there, at which point why would anyone chose it over newer titles? Might work in the short period to boost numbers and get the Pearl AByss bonus, but if eve is popular is not due to carebears, social corps and new-player-protection rage. Imagine if in that recent video about friend recruitment rewards made by CCP, the three friends instead of fighting decided to unflagg themselv and carebear or if the citadel expansion promo video was ”Build your dreams, and protect the noobs”

This is a small step for a nerf, but a big step for the game concept evolution.

[Steve_Ronuken]

It’s something I bring up on a semi-regular basis.

Both the corp-lite (it’s an npc corp except you can rename it, and control the membership) and the social group (it’s supplemental to corporations. Bomber’s bar, the goon SIGs, and so on. be a member of as many as you like).

The main difference between them being Identity. One’s a primary identity, one’s supplemental. Both are important.

(Being able to target them for things like fleet membership and so on is important)

[Avaelica_Kuershin]

@Kina_Ayami

A better solution would be a nerf or noob corps and soon to be unflagged corps. A progressive tax that grows with char age, impossibility to access anything bigger thana procurer or a t1 industrial, max 10 market orders, max 2 industry jobs, etc etc. At that point, when you flag yourself for war, you do get a real reward for a potential risk. And people wouldnt find war odd at all. Personally i would be fine seeing my fishing pond reduced if thet fugitives are accepting a reward reduction.

Unworkable. NPC corps offer a better solution than that.
Rewarding people for making themselves available for PVP hasn’t seemed to work so well elsewhere.

There are problems with the band-aid which do need addressing in a comprehensive plan but making NPC corps more attractive than a player corps seems the wrong way to go.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

The problem with the “increase in safety” argument is that it fails to take into account how safety has decreased by veteran players mastery of the meta and the deeper pockets they have these days. Not all changes to risk or reward happen through mechanical means. Changes in meta play also do that. And the meta play has been decreasing safety. This is just a reset back towards neutral.

[Harrison_Kado]

Probably long overdue. Thanks to the new owners for keeping pvp where it belongs in low and nullsec. No more pvp or ability to target other players in 100% safe high sec space is going to make this game flourish.

Sale was a great thing!

[Jonah_Gravenstein]