Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas


(Aaron) #1034

@Dracvlad @Daichi_Yamato

Hmmm, I’m enjoying reading your exchange.

I just get the sense that many people want things the easy way and they don’t want to actually PLAY Eve. It seems like many people are saying “If Pvp targets don’t fall on our lap then were not interested”

It seems Eve/PVP is becoming even more of an immersive game. I like the thought of hisec pvp’ers having to conduct extensive reconnaissance with nothing but their note pad and cloaky ship, it adds a higher level of realism to the game in my opinion.

(Daichi Yamato) #1035

This goes both ways. There are many people who want to enjoy the rewards and safety but don’t want the risk of pvp. This is just as much not ‘playing eve’.

And maybe some pvp players want targets to fall on their lap, but it is a very small minority. The vast majority of wardeccers enjoyed the cat n mouse games that came with using the watch list and locator agents. And at the time, these were smaller groups than the wardeccers of today as shown by pedros graph.

Hunting with cloakies/alts and stalking prey sounds very glamarous. But if you make it too expensive and too hard to hunt targets, big groups hub humping is inevitable. Wardecs only against targets with structures is only going to push wardeccers further into larger groups, and they are under no obligation to actually attack the structures of their war targets. In fact if they want to keep the dec going, they have an incentive NOT to attack structures.

(Aaron) #1036

I’m keeping an open mind about what they will do with structures, I speculate that structures could give out ship bonuses within a jump radius, say like some mining and pvp/pve bonuses. I could be wrong. But its safe to say that it will be unlike anything Eve has seen before.

The goal now will be to make hi sec pilots wet themselves when they learn of the changes to structures. It will be very important to ensure that every hisec pilot will want a structure to assist whatever it is they do in Eve. So what we could find is a large amount of people prepared to risk wardecs in order to benefit from these speculated structure bonuses.

I’m happy with the change so far, I do think it is a good idea to give the people being wardeced a few months breathing space and a chance to enjoy the game without the risk of wardec, If the result of the first change to wardecs results in higher and consistant login numbers then its a good thing.

Hopefully in about 3 or 4 months we should see more pvp in hi sec where the people being wardecced understand the position they have put themselves in and are happy to fight back providing content and fun.

(Daichi Yamato) #1037

Bring back OGB. :+1:

I feel like we’ve already had this. NPC corps vs player corps. And did we find people prepared to risk wardecs in order to benefit from being in a player corp?

Yes we did. But they still whined. And it still resulted in a ‘problem’ with retention.

All we’re doing is moving the goal posts. Make structures as attractive as player corps were, and people will want them but without the risk of wardecs. Then they will cry all over again.

What would you say to a noob who puts up a structure in his first week of playing the game, gets decced and cries on the forums? Probably the same thing we’ve been telling noobs that start their own corp on the first week.

Or you could tell me why it’s going to be different this time.

We don’t need them tied to structures for that. Heck you didn’t even need to be in a corp for that.

Colour me skeptical.

The same people who join a corp and complain about being decced will be the same people who put down a structure and complain about being decced.

Meanwhile wardec corps are getting bigger and fewer and more blue to eachother. Just the way noob corps like it right?

(Kina Ayami) #1038

I swear i read it all, it’s nice to see interest in wars, indipendently if i agree or not.

Just a question to start: are our beloved new players safe yet? :slight_smile:
Wasnt that all about?

I see such a need for war objectives, please spare us. Whatever mechanic you chose as target for attackers and defenders will surely be boring and probably easy to evade/exploit for both sides.

How about the original idea i proposed of a financial tax/ mining/ industry/ trading reward for who flag himself and face the risk?
There you go your objective, in a simple rule, that is very sandbox friendly and doesnt bring boredom. Restauration of risk vs reward is what the war system lacks, mechanics come after.
The defender has an incentive to take the risk, the attacker a probably better opponent that has something to defend, his ability to make isk.
Dont want to tale a risk? Stay in noob or social corps which are not elegible, but accept that you will have less reward. This can be easily tuned to make so that new players arent affected in their ability to make isk ( tax progressing with char age, limitations to mining ship classes that wont affect ventures anyway, and so on… unless you want to inject to riches, in which case you already have enough iskd probably).

Then later tune the mechanics. Locator for structures? Ok, let’s give it a try.
Let’s discuss mechanics, but after fixing risk/reward. It might be that this alone would fix wars, or at least their perception. No one go to forums to complain about being blowed in low sec or null: they knew rewards were worth the risk. Two tier of income in high sec , linked to war elegibility, would balance most issues, especially perceived ones.

P.s. If the only solution a corp leader can provide to his mates is to log off a week in case of wardec, then thid leader would be better going learn the rooes. Evaiding deks it’s easy imho. Dont forget modt dekking ppl has carebearing alts, so trudt me if i say that :))

(Dom Arkaral) #1039

They’ve always been safe

It’s always been older players that cried about the mechanics, since they lacked the leadership to make said newbros do great things.

This is just a bandaid, so we’ll see what the future brings

(Peter Yurgin) #1040

These changes has made it common for the defenders to just start taking down their structures right after they get war dec’d. I’ve had a few wars now I’m in a race against time because they would strip the structures and start the timer to take them down. I’ve seen billions of dollars of tech2 rigs just destroyed rather then defended. This is the strangest war tactic yet.

(Qia Kare) #1041

What changes are you referring to? It has always been possible to strip a structure prior to the war. The unanchoring timer is a week, however, and is unlikely to complete before you can reinforce it.

If the defender has reason to believe they will lose the structure, then it is prudent, though unsatisfying, for them to make the structure as unattractive target as possible. Better to lose the rigs than the whole structure, or better to have a cheaper kill on your killboard if you will lose the whole structure.

Either way, though, you’ve inflicted billions of isk in damage to your target, and you don’t even have to do anything. Once the war goes live, shooting the structure once will freeze the fit if you can score any damage. Reinforcing it will cancel any unanchoring timer and see to it the fit sticks until the structure repairs itself, or it is unanchored by weapons fire.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #1042

So basically you are saying, you better have a plan to attack something if you declare a war?

Sounds like working as intended to me.

(safira jomita) #1043

Indeed it’s happening… The cause is clear to me. They prefer easy farm than take the risk to war a prepared and strong corp. Ironic don’t?

(Daichi Yamato) #1044


Just becuase you’re easy to kick around doesn’t mean you should be left to mine and manufacturing 24/7.

Carebears choose to farm pve because it’s easy and risk free rather than learn to defend themselves. Choosing easy targets is the nature of predators. Don’t get salty about, become tougher prey or reduce your exposure.

(safira jomita) #1045

I agree, I’m tired to say I don’t care about AFK miners being ganked. I just say the truth be spoken. There are corps that live by farming new or dumb players, and a few of them actually engage in a real challenge

(Dom Arkaral) #1046

It’s called: laws of nature

The strong prey on the weak, like it’s been happening since the beginning of time…

(Nevyn Auscent) #1047

Or you know, it’s a natural process because CCP has designed highsec in such a way that larger co-operation is actually punished by a number of game mechanics, and there aren’t any significant rewards to it. There could be a totally different design for industrials that would almost be more EVE than the current one which would encourage co-operation a lot more.

Lets not pretend that game design doesn’t have a massive impact on how people group up or don’t group up.
Or on how well a group can defend themselves.

(safira jomita) #1048

If you like hunting , take your gun and do it. Eve is much more complex than that. And since man created guns that rule has much exceptions

(Killer Gandry) #1049

I do have to note that a majority of the socalled pvp corporations in high sec are bigger carebears than the mission runners / miners they dec.

(Daichi Yamato) #1050

You likely have a different definition of carebear to me. But many wardeccers wont take a fair fight, ill say that much. But they don’t have to.

Shoot their structures in that case.

(Killer Gandry) #1051

Carebear is someone who tries to avoid any form of risk as much as possible.

And let’s face it. In most cases it’s the wardeccing corp which avoids the risk more than the socalled indy corp they decced.
And also most of those small wardec corps don’t go for any structures, they only do a load of decs for the remote chance of an easy gank every so many decs.

(Daichi Yamato) #1052

Lol no. You’re just bitter at decs.

They will try to gain any advantage in a fight, and that’s exactly what the defenders should do as well. Doing so doesn’t make you a carebear. It’s just smart.

A carebear to me, is someone who thinks they should be exempt from pvp. Who thinks they should get all the benefits of industry and pve without exposure to pvp.

(Killer Gandry) #1053

And that is where we differ in opinion.

But I know in advance that any reasoning from my side will be smurked at, ridiculed etc I am not even going to try to look at it all from each point objectivly.