Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas


(Daichi Yamato) #1054

Getting upset about unfair fights shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the pvp sandbox works. See eves golden rules.

Whomever gets wardecced, does so because they put themselves in a position to be decced. They told the game they were willing to take the risk. And it’s only getting harder to put yourself in a position to be decced, so if people are still complaining about how they end up decced against big war groups or that big war groups only dec small corps, they’ve only got the defenders to blame.

(Killer Gandry) #1055

Yet it’s in many cases in High Sec where it is actually the one doing the wardec is the most risk averse player.
As soon as i mentioned to add a locator agent for a corporation that gets decced to locate the nearest structure of the agressor, so incase it’s one of the gazillion pvp wannabe carebears. the socalled pvp community almost got a fit.
The arguments like “This won’t make any indy / missionrunner corp actually fight” or “this would be an unfair advantage” were intermixed with LOL fests and Nubcake bravado’s.
Yet i find it odd that when I want to locate a specific pilot there isn’t really that much difficulty to get his location anywhere in Empire, unless they are docked up in an Upwell.
But in this heavily regulated Empire space, where Concord keeps also track of everything it’s impossible to get the systemname of where a corporation has it’s nearest giant structure in space?

And why would this Indy corp undock if they can hire people who want to fight for them? Or that mission runner corp has friends who would like to step in, just that this hopeless searching most of the time for these socalled pvp elitists is pointless, because CCP in their infinite wisdom handed this gankstyle of play a lot of extra tools so they can continue their style in every which way they want.

On the other side you have the indy and mission runner people who have to adapt completely towards the game style of the wannabe pvp elitists who’s main feat is to have several alpha alts here and there to gank small ships to pass time untill they see at some point one of players from one of the 10 corps they decced in a juicy target.

This isn’t a sandbox, it’s just shooting fish in a barrel over which the shootist has all say and lays down all the rules and the fish aren’t given any real tools like these firearms experts to defend themselves or hire someone who wouldn’t mind some pew pew.

(Black Pedro) #1056

I don’t think anyone can honestly say that at least some highsec wardeccers are hyper risk-averse. You don’t get 100-to-1 killboards without minimizing risks and stacking the PvP deck in your favour. But that isn’t the pejorative that many Eve players like to use it as. It may be “cowardly” or “dishonourable” but it is in general smart play, just like all the industrialist and PvE players who go to great lengths and efforts to minimize the risks to themselves.

I do think there should be a major buff to locator agents giving them the ability to both the location of structures, and some information on player/corp activity to compensate for the large impact the watch list had on hunting game play. I will say I don’t expect that would make many targets actually fight back, but it is pretty silly to build a PvP game and not include viable methods to find when your opponents are online or where their stuff is.

This game is absolutely a sandbox. There is nothing preventing you from using the same tactics as the other side. You have maximal freedom to join up with friends, hire muscle, or flee the war entirely. I get that you may just want to farm stuff without risk, but guaranteeing that isn’t what “sandbox” means. You are part of a living, competitive world where the other players might move in on your corner of the sandbox or even smash your sandcastles.

These stop-gap changes are not the final form. Let’s hope CCP comes up with a fun and engaging war system that keeps those that don’t want to compete out of harms way while allowing interesting conflict to go on in highsec. But whatever that final form is, it isn’t going to allow corporations access to structures or all the other perks of being in a competitive corporation - if you want that, you better figure out a way to defend that.

(Dom Arkaral) #1057

TIL that choosing when I want to agress my WT as a solo deccer was being a carebear :joy:

When the ship (or ammo even) I have costs more than all the ship destroyed in a single war, of course I’m going to choose my fights you doofus :joy::joy::joy:

I’d rather be efficient than careless

(Killer Gandry) #1058

Thank you Dom Arkaral for proving my point.

You are the prototype of pvpp wannabe I was talking about. Risk averse pvp player who only looks for the softest targets, who most likely has several decs going as many jumps as possible from where your own structure ( most likely a poco) so you don’t have the need to defend anything, you just use an alt of a few, since alpha’s are free to be used as scouts.
If somehow they do bring into the game that locator agents can actually locate structures i think you might get your panties all tied up, because heee, now you can’t play your own playstyle solo again. Because the big bad soft targets might actually hurt you back.

It’s too easy as a wardeccing corp in high sec to avoid real risk, whereas an indy corp which is deccable has an asset in space they put up there for a reason, which most likely is also their base of operation.
So tracking them down is pretty straight forward if you are the deccer, but as defender all you can do is to step on someone elses playing field and ask yourself which of the sooo many people you see around is actually whispering all the intell over.
So the miner/indy/missionrunner is put at a huge disadvantage because all they can do is adjust completely without much chance of ending the war a tad sooner because they brought the fight back to the attackers doorsteps. Be it themselves or be it hired guns.

And it might look like a sandbox, CCP might even call it a sandbox. But if a certain type of playing in the sandbox has a huge advantage over other styles of playing in the same sandbox i won’t call it a real sandbox but a turkey shoot.

And no, i am not risk averse. i undock during a war, I try to locate opponents, but in high sec the only chance you actually get to fight is when you are decced by one of the huge corporations or alliances, and here and there the rare small corp. But those are as rare as a fight in most of the common wardecs.

(Daichi Yamato) #1059

Please name one tool that ccp has given wardeccers in the past 7 years to help them continue wardecs in anyways way they want.

These are not mutually exclusive.

You’re basically upset that the other players are stronger than you yet you still want to play on the same level as them (with structures). They don’t have to make it easy for you. In fact if they’ve been paid to dec you, going easy on you would be bad service.

Learn to manage your exposure.

(Dom Arkaral) #1060

Risk averse players don’t put multi-billion isk hulls on the line whenever they undock

If I were risk averse I’d fly T1 frigs or cruisers and not fighting at all… but I didn’t. But hey, your F1 monkey kb truly shows us who’s risk-averse here :wink: (that 100% not-solo looks really sad mate hahahahahahahahah)

E: last true activity in 2012
I thought people that started long before me weren’t crybabies :joy:
Guess not

(Killer Gandry) #1061

Yeah sure, people hire a one man corp for wardecs. Guess budget merc get’s you a budget player.
And i doubt you are stronger than me. you might fly a bit more expensive pixels but that is the only thing you might outshine me. Though I don’t fly pinata’s to impress people.

And yes, I actually took a break from the game for personal reasons and yes I flew in null sec in teams. You know, that space where hiding behind an alt in a NPC corp doesn’t bring much and you actually have to team up for the fleet fights.

(Dom Arkaral) #1062

Easy to spout when the only experience you had was fleet stuff lol

I don’t either.
I fly expensive things because:
1- I can afford to
2- better everything

Anything that makes killing easier is a plus, unless you’re a poor :joy:

Too bad you can’t/couldn’t wardec from npc corps eh?

(Dracvlad) #1063

I like you sir.

When I was in the war dec discord I suggested that if the character who they were getting a locator check on had high standings too that the locator agent would give them the nod that they were being checked on. I had the exact same replies as you got, was hilarious, they only like it to work one way, and this is a real shame.

(Ghost O'Mo) #1064

I keep reading about pvp’ers being afraid they’ll lose their structures. What?

I’m new and all, but I would just put an unfueled small POS in a C1 wormhole somewhere and leave it there.

A control tower isn’t worth destroying unless there is a moon shortage. It’ll be there for years… especially considering the abject pain involved in destroying it with cruisers/BCs.

And go ask that locator agent where it is… J123456 is pretty useless info. The only way to find it is to post contracts so widely someone sells you it’s location.

And then… after that Herculean effort to find and destroy the thing with small ships… they can buy another for 118m and stick it another c1 before you are halfway through the shields of the first one.

Unless pvp’ers in this game have gone soft… I’d guess most would have even more clever ideas than little old me.

Who knows.

I read this thread as a classic example of the Scrublord’s Prayer.

The people attacking me have an unfair advantage. If they don’t, then it took no skill to do it. If it took skill to do it, then it wasn’t even fun. And if it was, then all they care about is their killboards.

I bring this up because the devout of the scrublords prayer apply it to all losses… no matter what.

(Nevyn Auscent) #1065

If Locator agents could actually find structures, you might have a point to this.

(Ghost O'Mo) #1066

Should have articulated that better. A few posts up someone was lamenting that the PvP community cried emotionally at the proposition of making structured searchable.

I find it quite silly.

However, wars are becoming silly too, considering the freedom to use holding corps to prevent any players from dealing with them, ever.

(Dracvlad) #1067

And I keep suggesting that people have to have structures in hisec to be able to do a war dec. But a structure anywhere enables people to war dec you.

Better still as discussed earlier in this thread is if a structure in hisec that is linked directly to the war dec and destroying it ends the war dec. The objective is to get people in space trying to destroy it and this structure could be linked to the size and ability of the defender so for a one man corp with no PvP experience it would only take you sneezing on it.

(Killer Gandry) #1068

What do structures in wormholes and null sec have to do with a wardec?

The only reason to declare a war is to kill targets in empire space without any repurcussions of Concord, gateguns or sec rating loss.
Concord and the empires don’t give a rats arse about who kills whom in null sec nor in wormhole space. You don’t need a wardec in either of those 2 to randomly shoot people without being concordokened, having gate guns shoot at you or your sec rating dropping.

So both spaces structures shouldn’t add to war eligeability.
Only structures in Empire space, you know the space you need a wardec without legal repurcussions, should be those structures needed for deccing or being decced.

Or do you think that when you head out to null sec or WH space and some people in there see you they first want to dec you before they go shoot your arse?

(Black Pedro) #1069

Nah. The primary one is game balance - the largest and most powerful groups in the game based in nullsec and womeholes shouldn’t be immune to wardecs. That just concentrates the hunting activity in highsec onto the newest and smallest groups.

But it you can also make some lore reason for it: CONCORD is undermanned and forced to make decisions on who to protect. Through their contacts in the Upwell corporation, they know who owns each structure, so they tell their pencil pushers to give lesser protection to these holding corps and approve any war requests against them to free up resources for elsewhere.

(Peter Yurgin) #1070

You already can locate the people in the corp. Chances are they will hang out and log off in their structures. It just take a little bit of recon to go over there and when they are sopposed to be in the system in space somewhere and not in local to think “oh I know maybe check for none public strucutures on my system map here. Since they all show up on the map regardless if they are in the overview or not and you can warp to them from the map also.”
They really aren’t too hard to find now.

(Nevyn Auscent) #1071

This is only true when talking about the defender.
The attacker can dump a structure anywhere, never use it and not be counter attackable.
Yes, this was a raised issue in the start, yes it’s still better than the old system as the defender gets risk and yes most defenders wouldn’t attack the structure anyway.
But it’s still not good.

(Peter Yurgin) #1072

There are plenty of attackers that live and use their structures. If you get war dec’d by marmintes then sure; who knows where this structure is. I’m sure its in a wormhole somewhere and is a customs office. So if the locator comes back and says this is the case, good luck anyway trying to do anything about that. Trying to find one wormhole system from the outside in is like a specific needle in a stack of needles.

So sure I have no problem with locators telling you about structures, but don’t think it is impossible to find these things now. For the groups this change was made to try and hinder it really only takes down their pool of war dec-able players. But otherwise its business as usual for them.

There are just more players now sharing bookmarks, corp hangers, paying no taxes, and shell corps so people can go around high-sec without being war dec’d. I didn’t like this change. It should have started with a revamp of the system with the idea of being able to tell easier who is at war with who. Right now it is too binary. Some corps have a lot of wars and are attackers and defenders and allies in other wars. Going down a list to see where some of these corps are in wars is a hassle and they are adding a dropping them each day too.

I would love to know where the CCP Alliance’s structures are tho.

(Salt Foambreaker) #1073

So I am wondering why this thread keeps going, I mean they did what they did.

Then I read the end and I see people have this fantasy additional changes are coming…

… in less than 5 years :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: