Agree. It does not happen often. Bring your own logi / bring it in house. Job done.
With respect, it is one of the reasons why nullsec players do not tend to get hisec.
I have shot at neutral RR which attacked a structure near me, it does happen, in my deliberations of the structure I was accepting going suspect and I was going to setup to deal with their neutral RR. But anyway, it is not happening now, but it had the potential to happen, but that possibility got wiped out by this decision.
Most hisec players prefer to play in their own corp and use the tools available there, we do not want to be exposed to the mess of rooting out spies and other miscreants. So a solo player corp is certainly what most hisec players want because it means they can control their play.
So now we get to the next stage, will those players join an alliance, well I can do it easy because I have multi skilled toons in my accounts, and I can have two specific PvP toons in a corp that is designated to do war decs while not impacting my other toons. But most casual hisec players have all their eggs in one basket. This means that most will not join alliances because they want to control their exposure.
That being said it could be possible to have people move in and out corps for this sort of thing but it is one more hurdle in peoples minds, just like the delay in changing clones used to be before Upwell structures. People will go meh, I canāt be bothered.
Which is why I pointed out in the previous thread that you need to think about it from the context of the hisec entities. You did not.
I like most of what you have done, but this issue is handing hisec on a plate to certain war deckers.
PIRAT are happy with this as you can see, they can absolutely dominate hisec because no one will be able to compete. Did you pick up what Faylee said during that discussion?
Did you not understand that most of the people who called for neutral RR were roaming type small gang war deckers who did not like pipe and hub campers calling in neutral RR of which PIRAT were the most dominant in using this I will repeat the issue having a meaningful objective is part of the battle, you got there, but then you have to have a chance to do it. Just do not be surprised if hardly anyone still fights back, because I am not.
Yes Faylee is one of my guys - I think he represented our leadership team well.
At the end of the day we just want fights and content. We all hope the War HQ will bring that.
Neutral logi has the group a bit more split. I for one agree with the change. It was never fair for someone to be in a fight and then all of a sudden see logi light up. It will all just come in house now. We have no issue with this as a leadership team.
1 Like
I know who Faylee is, he is one of the most open minded war deckers that I came across.
There are two elements to this, perhaps CCP under their reasoning wanted to restrict it so that Imperial Sigs would not come into hisec and roll over everything, so that decision actually enables you to compete at least against the lessor nullsec alliances where your quality in terms of fits and mechanics will give you the advantage.
I am not talking about the surprise of having neutral logi arrive at a skirmish, I am talking about the major fight over an Upwell structure, there is a difference.
Youāve already noted that what you were looking to do is not something that currently exists, so it would have been difficult for us to anticipate that we were potentially killing something that you potentially thought about potentially doing.
Regardless, you noted here that one-man corps are the norm, so thereās no reason why an alliance full of one-man corps canāt be a thing. If the primary reason for joining the alliance is for mutual assistance during war decs, then that solves the problem.
Yes, maybe it requires some of the high sec guys to do something they otherwise wouldnāt do. But thatās also happening on the other side of the coin, so I donāt see the problem with it.
So where were you expecting the defence to come from againt PIRAT and Marmite? Nullsec perhaps?
I guess it will have to be a specific war dec alliance with corps setup to accept people ready to come in. It just made it one more hoop to jump through which is always an issue when dealing with a player base that looks for any excuse not to bother doing PvP.
Yes it does you are right, however it is not a balanced comparison on attitudes and effect.
Anyway I donāt want to labour the point and I think you chaps have moved it a long way in the right direction. The question is can we shift the hisec player base?
I can see Merc Corps signing up to join an alliance temporarily if the pay is good enough. Is that not a realistic idea?
To be fair, the biggest abusers of neutral logi were the usual suspects, not the guys trying to defend against the usual suspects. I get the feeling this hurts them more than it hurts the defenders.
It is certainly possible, however most have an identity which means something to them. They could and it is possible. I have a corp with two PvP toons in it and that corp can easily join an alliance which was my intent. But I donāt think that players like me are the issue, instead it is trying to get the casual hisec players to think why not.
Could you see the Initiative corps joining Test on a temp basis for example to help defend their hisec Keepstar? Though of course they have the numbers to have a self contained logi unit. Hisec carebears not so much.
With the changes you made you switched the focus of play to Upwell structures, but you adjusted something that really impacted a different play area and handed an advantage to the large war deckers in combat over Upwell Structures. I understand why you did it, but I am merely advising you that in my opinion it is a mistake and others have also mentioned that in this thread.
But let us see what happens.
WHAT?
Brisc. Dude. ARE YOU HIGH? I know Init usually brings their own fleet to things, but look at Imperium mainfleet: GSF/TNT/LAWN/BSTN all mixed in. Look at DeadCo fleets: Darkness/SLYCE/etc all mixed in. Horde and NCdot fleet up together sometimes (esp NCdot or PL FCs running the PH fleets)ā¦ TEST/BRAVE/TICKLE combined fleetsā¦
Youāve rarely seenā¦ the normal way coalition fleets work? wat?
It really doesnāt. They just have to have their neutral logi join corp before the objective, then go back to their alt-corp after. Sure, itās 7 days before they can come back in, but theyāve been doing that with the corp-hopping already. Theyāll just (continue to) maintain multiple sets of logi/PvE pilots out of corp to swap in and out. And thatās assuming there arenāt 4 additional placeholder corps they can jump in and out of in the wardec alliance.
Not terribly realistic, no. Maybe for small, individual merc corps, but even less realistic for merc alliances. Putting a corp in the alliance means you wind up risking losing people who decide those guys are pretty cool, letās stay here instead. The smaller the merc group, the more you run that risk. Ironically, these are the merc groups more likely to be able to do this, because the larger alliances are, you know, alliances. And alliances canāt join alliances, obviously enough.
Yeah, I realize now thinking about this that I wasnāt thinking straight. Iām so used to INIT/IM being one unit that I didnāt think about it.
I was primarily thinking it would be weird to see Goon logi repping INIT in a fight, or PL logi repping NC., etc. Thinking of the larger coalitions instead of what Drac was talking about. Most of the time alliance fleets are relatively homogenous, but there are plenty of times when they arenāt. And it makes NPSI stuff impossible to do in highsec, but then I donāt think this mechanic really favors NPSI.
So yeah, my bad.
1 Like
I must have missed the point here. I just went to war dec you (in Game) because you made me read this utter tripe! I cannot war dec you as you donāt have a structure. The system is working. If you want to kill me you can assist or come to Jita. In the new system - heck you can join a coalition to come shoot our HQā¦ 
Come play ā¦
What are alliances in high sec used for right now? Do they have any meaning except alliance contracts and remote reps?
Weāve done that, too, FYI. More than a few of the experienced RepSwarm anchors keep an eye on FCs in the other allied fleets on-grid. If I know who the logi-anchor is in another Imperium fleet, Iāll try to keep them locked, too.
I will be playing with you at some point, count on it.
1 Like
Now we have meaningful content and a meaningful war. WP CCP.
What are they used for anywhere else?
Alliance infrastructure, contracts, ease of coordination and innate standings, group identity without sacrificing your immediate group of friendsā shared sense of who you are, a clear, distributed leadership structure, etc. Same stuff they get used for in null and low.
I agree that this is something that CCP push to make happen. In highsec it really effects what kinds of ships and fleet type your ābluesā or friends that share the same mutual war can and will bring.
I embrace the idea of smaller groups banding together to take on stronger enemiesā¦ itās how it should work. If this is something that incentivizes more people showing up to protect and attack timers, then I welcome it. I havenāt read too many of the examples here on how to accomplish this, but CCP needs to be careful in how they do itā¦ someone named Faylee juuuuust might find a way to abuse this 
1 Like
Yeah, Iām retarded.
No you are not, you are certainly one of the best things to happen to the CSM from my point of view.
That you can admit to missing something like this and start thinking it through makes you someone very able in my opinion.
Confirming Brisc wears a helmet.
Plus as a mercenaryā¦ someone that gets paid to do things. Why limit the possibility of being paid to provide our infamous logi ball of logi-ness? Everyone is complaining about Piratās overuse of logiā¦ perhaps you let us put it to good use for a client or for a mutual benefit and we will see less people rage.
During the POSPY eviction Khromius was literally a āsoloā logi wing.